Author Topic: Did any of the Romanovs survive?  (Read 126210 times)

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Offline anna

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2004, 07:01:05 PM »
What does Radzinsky wants  to achieve with his theatrical prose? Does he think his readers take everything for granted?

I  don't know how to deal with "The file on the Tsar" by Anthony Summers and Tom Mangold. I read this book a long time ago but it left a lot of questions and this book doesn't feel good by me.

They presumed, after years of investigation, only Nicholas was executed. Alexandra and the children were transported to Perm by train. They lived there for several weeks, then moved to Glazow and Kazan heading for Moscow. In between one of the girls tried to escape and maybe succeeded. (I think that's why they are pro-Anastasia). But somewhere on the road the family disapeared.

Summers and Mangold came up with "withhold"details and facts based on eyewitnesses, policerapports and other testimonys, all in russian. Even an BBC-documentary was based on this book. I wonder how did they get access to these files. If they really exist. Are they the only ones who did come up with such detailed
facts? Did anyone read this book and what's your opinion?
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Offline Alice

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2004, 04:04:39 AM »
Yes I read it . . . remember that it was written before the discovery of the grave though . . . I think the book was very speculative.

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2004, 02:24:27 PM »
I remember when the book came out - I stood and read it from cover-to-cover at the bookstore. I remember thinking - maybe, hopefully it could be true and someone escaped.  The one picture that stuck in my mind from the book was the description of Olga in gold-rimmed glasses going down to get something out of a trunk in Perm.  I could just see her doing it for some reason.  That book really created a sensation at the time.

For a number of years I read and reread the book, hoping it was true.  Well, as we all now know it wasn't true.

Offline pers

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2004, 09:29:43 PM »
I think something that is worth mentioning, is that Greg King clearly indicates in his book that the maid who helped the Grand Duchesses conceal the jewellery, makes reference to it that it was sown into "kostyumi" and not into the "korset".  Thus it was not  a matter where two corsets were put on top of one another and sown together with jewels in padding between the two layers.
Thus logically, each woman would have worn one corset.  If you can get hold of the book "The Sokolov Investigation" you shall see that it contains photographs of a lot of the items found at the mine shaft where the bodies were undressed before they were thrown into the pit.  There is a photograph that shows the front busks of the corsets found, and they number exactly six, accounting for all six female corpses that were undressed and thrown into the pit.  So I personally do not think any of the women survived the massacre.

Offline investigator

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2004, 07:40:53 AM »
If none of the romanovs survived then why is there so much mystery surrounding their death?
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2004, 11:05:59 AM »
Pers:

The jewels were not sewn into corsets they were sewn into double camisoles and the corsets were worn on top of them.

Bob

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2004, 11:43:03 PM »
Regarding File on the Tsar: it has its place in Romanov scholarship in that in the West, because prior to its publication, there was never any critical study of the Sokolov Report. For many years, writers just continued to cite the Report as definitive without question.

While the book contains many mistakes, it did successfully challenge some of the questionable forensics. For example,  the long held belief that all the bodies could have been quickly destroyed by fire in the forest is absolutely demolished.

In my opinion, it's worth reading, but with the fingers over the nostrils for those parts that won't bear scrutiny.

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2004, 09:01:10 PM »
Basically, the american scientists using bone and dental records assume Anastasia is missing. All the bones and teeth that were found were thought to be too mature for a seventeen year old according to the americans. However the russian scientists believe that Anastasia has been found. They used a method called superimposition that used facial features to identify Anastasia. However, considering that the most of the face had to be reconstructed from bone fragements, I belive this lacks credibility. I personally belive Alexei's and Anastasia's remains are still missing.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2004, 09:48:15 PM »
Bob Atchison actually viewed the remains before burial. While not a scientist, he has an artist's eye for faces. He told me that Anastasia was definitely one of the sets of remains. I believe him, but that also comes from many years of friendship.

connie dobbin

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2004, 04:50:01 PM »
There has been so much speculation and missinformation on this subject that I feel that the people in charge would find it very difficult to accept new evidence.  I believe that whatever concrete  evidence might be presented, it would be destroyed, or conveniently missplaced.

Without a doubt Anna Anderson was definitely not Anastasia. Anna Anderson's DNA did not match!

I beleive like many people that two of the Tsars daughters survived and lived and had children. These children hold the relevant DNA as proof. Fact is would they want to be found? There has been so many death threats towards the family, why would they want to come forward.  So many imposters impersonating them, so much manufactured information. It would make the genuine individual hide.  The question then arises, if this is so, will the grandchildren react in the same way. Will they hide too?

The Romanovs DNA is in dispute. Recently I found heard that Scientists have found a finger.  Could this be the finger that was found in 1918 by the investigators at Four Brothers Mine? The Finger was said to belong to the Empress. The Russians have held on to this for such a long time.  However this finger doesn't match the supposedly Romanov DNA.  I find this very interesting as I am very sure that the Russians have miss informed the people as to the truth in the identication of the Romanov remains and DNA.





Offline JM

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2004, 05:16:15 PM »
      It's kind of funny that you say any concrete evidence which contradicts that which we already know would be destroyed if it arose. Then you go and say Anna could not be Anastasia because of DNA. Well then according to your reasoning isn't it just as possible that the DNA test results concerning Anna and Anastasia were "fabricated" somehow. (I am not "claiming" they are)

     You are also "very sure" that the Russians have misinformed us about the Romanovs DNA. Well then what was Anna's DNA actually being compared to!

     Sorry if I come off harsh. I just noticed a few things I had to comment on.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2004, 05:46:32 PM »
TWO daughters ? I have read everything from the whole family to just one survivor, but not 2 daughters. Where does this come from?
This finger, I may not be totally up-to-date, but the only finger I know of was the "Sokolov" finger, which seems to have dissapeared into the walls of a Belgian church?
I am quite willing to be corrected.
So far as I know, the most recent published findings/research is by King & Wilson. Pretty darned thorough I think. The very explicit description of the death & disposal of the bodies seems to leave no doubt in my mind. [not that I had any to begin with-I have always believed that no one survived].
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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2004, 07:56:39 PM »
Update.

Knight, Zhivotovsky et al tested the finger of Alexandra's sister Elizabeth, and found that it doesn't match the published findings.

They also found that the Elizabeth finger was contaminated with DNA from 2 other individuals, while the Gill test of 9 individuals buried in loamy soil for 75 years and handled (seemingly) by everybody from the Minister of Internal Affairs to Bob Atchison, showed no contamination whatsoever is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Just teasing Bob, I'm sure you didn't touch the remains because if you had done so, some of your DNA may have contaminated them.  And of course, they were never handled in any way other than with the most proper scientific forensic rigour for the 8 odd years they were sitting there in the open on a steel slab in Ekaterinburg, right?   :-/  
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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2004, 08:00:34 PM »
I am also surprised that this paper wasn't mentioned in King and Wilson's book.  I'm sure they must have known about the Stanford Romanov project all along.  Why didn't they include it in their book?

Also, I've recently learned that the Romanoff family has a close relationship with Stanford University (a couple of them have PHDs from Stanford) and the Hoover Institution.  Does anyone know if they have had anything to do with this?
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Offline _Rodger_

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Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2004, 08:54:19 PM »
Also. . .

2 daughters?   :o

This is the first I've heard of that, too.
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