The Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum
 
 User Info & Key Stats   
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
July 29, 2014, 05:54:16 PM
460904 Posts in 8930 Topics by 14526 Members
Latest Member: kmk818
News: We think Pallasart is the best web design company in Austin and for good reason - they make this forum possible! Looking for a website? Call them at 512 469-7454.
+  The Alexander Palace Time Machine Discussion Forum
|-+  Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty
| |-+  The Myth and Legends of Survivors (Moderators: LisaDavidson, Forum Admin)
| | |-+  Did any of the Romanovs survive?
  0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 29 Go Down Print
Author
Locked Topic Topic: Did any of the Romanovs survive?  (Read 69782 times)
Reply #75
« on: May 21, 2004, 05:22:29 PM »
AGRBear Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
The road to truth is the best one to travel. Posts: 6596

View Profile WWW

I have not read:
"The Fate of The Romanov's" by Greg King and Penny Wilson

Does it have the names of the officers in the White Army who were the first ones to enter the Ekaterinburg house on 20 July 1918 and must have been looking for the Royal Romanov family?
----
As for the more recent subject about the DNA:

In 1918 no one imagined such a process would exsist.  Fingerprinting was the big deal in the world of criminal investigation in that time period.    When the Soviets tore down the House of Special Purpose [I don't remember the year],  DNA was just coming into it's own.  Was this one of the reasons  the Soviets, after all the time had passed,  deside to tear eliminate all evidence which remained?

You can see, I lean torward the theory that the Soviets continued to have something to hide.  

AGRBear
Logged

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152
Reply #76
« on: May 22, 2004, 08:59:53 AM »
pinkmustang Offline
Newbie
*
I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 1

View Profile

I personally beleive that Anastasia did survive, but that's because i want to, not because of evidence. It's nice to think that she did survive and the whole story of her was like the 20th century fox movie. I think with cases like this it's what you want to believe to make it more exciting.
Logged
Reply #77
« on: May 22, 2004, 09:27:32 AM »
Guinastasia Offline
Boyar
**
Celestial Grand Duchess of Wraiths Posts: 175

View Profile WWW

I believe Ipatiev House was torn down because it was starting to become a tourist attraction, and they just wanted to get rid of it-to prevent it becoming a shrine.

As for surviving, again-yeah, it would be nice if they did.  We'd all LOVE for that to be true.  But it's not, and since we're dealing with real people and real historical events, ignoring reality does nothing.  Anastasia was not a mythical figure, she was a real person.  

For example, I WANT to believe in a lot of things-I'd like to believe that war and violence and poverty don't exist, but they do.  Wishing them away isn't a good thing.
Logged

Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong;
And I am Marie of Roumania.
-Dorothy Parker
Reply #78
« on: May 22, 2004, 04:10:02 PM »
LisaDavidson Offline
Moderator
Velikye Knyaz
*****
Posts: 2605

View Profile

Pinkmustang - for goodness sake! The real Anastasia's life was nothing like the Fox cartoon!
Logged
Reply #79
« on: May 22, 2004, 06:09:56 PM »
Ammie Offline
Newbie
*
Posts: 45

View Profile

Quote
You have to remember you are talking about the Soviet Union.  They had plenty of time and inclination to go through all sorts of twists and turns to achieve their goals.
Besides, the DNA has been invalidated.  
And having read Massie, on page 71, he makes it clear that the experts disagreed about the identity of the remains even during the press conference!  One of Dr. Knight's team pointed out to me that Dr. Zvyagin was far more qualified than Abramov, but Abramov 'reminded' him during the conference who's boss and overruled his conclusion regarding the sex of skeleton 1.
Meet the new boss.  Same as the old boss.


Won't get fooled again  Wink  great quote..sums it up very nicely   Grin
ammie
Logged
Reply #80
« on: May 22, 2004, 08:27:21 PM »
Alice Offline
Graf
***
Posts: 283

View Profile

"The real Anastasia's life was nothing like the Fox cartoon!"

ROTF!

I like to remain open-minded (by this I'm not implying that I consider that Anasastia's life may've been like a cartoon, I'm referring to the survival VS death argument).

As far as I can see, while the remains for Anastasia (and Alexei) have not been found, we have a mystery (the understatement of the century!). There is no conclusive evidence of survival, nor is there conclusive evidence of death.

I, myself, have many theories for both Anastasia and Alexei's death and survival. Many of them would seem ludicrous to most people, and I'm not saying that my theories are at all likely, but they are, at least, possible.

The most perplexing question for me is: why did Yurosvky lie about the cremation of two of the remains? Pig's Meadow has been examined over and over, with no more remains found. I wonder why he lied about this but was rather open in his memoirs about the location of the main grave.

Someone (not necessarily on this thread) suggested that the remains of Anastasia and Alexei were eaten by animals. I am reluctant to believe this. Firstly, I cannot imagine the Bolsheviks leaving remains on the forest floor, unburied. If they did bury them, and they were subsequently dug up by animals, I cannot imagine that animals would consume all of the bones of two bodies - this is over 400 bones, there would be something left. Hair and teeth, at the very least, would remain. Also, I could be wrong, but I don't believe that many animals would consume skulls.

For the purpose of discussion, I will share one of my "survival" theories. Please feel free to criticise and deconstruct my theory. I encourage this. I think that it is at least possible that, because Yurovsky spared the life of Leonid Sedniev, that he spared the lives of Alexei and Anastasia, both children at the time of the murders. I am completely aware that this very unlikely.

Evidence that could support this theory:

- Yurovsky spared Leonid Sedniev. Alexei and Anastasia were children, like Leonid Sedniev.

- Yurovsky was often seen asking after Alexei's health and having conversations with him in the Ipatiev House.

- In his memoirs, Yurovsky says that the truck that he summoned to transport the bodies arrived hours later than intended. Possibly in the time before the truck's arrival, Alexei and Anastasia were removed from the house, and then the truck was summoned.

- Yurovsky says he cremated the remains of Alexei and Demidova. He had to say Alexei, as it would've been obvious to anyone who uncovered the grave that the body of a 13 year old boy was missing, but by saying that he cremated Demidova with him, he is accounting for all of the Imperial Family in the main grave, with the exception of Alexei. (Because Anastasia would be assumed to be one of the bodies found in the main grave). If he really did cremate the bodies, then he lied about the two bodies he cremated, because Demidova was in the main grave. Nowehere in his memoirs does he refer to the cremation of Anastasia.

- He lied about the cremation and burial of the two bodies. We now know that it is impossible to cremate two bodies in the conditions and time that the Bolsheviks had. He said he buried the remains, and that he supervised both burials (the burials of the 9 in the main grave, and of the 2 in the other grave). This suggests that these graves were in the vicinity of one another, but, additional remains have never been found in Pig's Meadow.

- All four daughters were said to have been "finished off" with shots to the head. But, eyewitnesses saw two of the daughters alive when they were being transported to the truck. It is possible that one daughter survived a shot to head (albeit VERY unlikely) but two? According to most eyewitnesses, Anastasia was the last of the family to die. Was this conveniently appended to the statements?
Logged
Reply #81
« on: June 03, 2004, 06:19:47 PM »
AGRBear Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
The road to truth is the best one to travel. Posts: 6596

View Profile WWW

Can anyone give evidence   that all these bodies were in the shallow grave since 1918?Huh??  I don't mean the words of those who claimed to have killed and buried all but two of the royal family.  I mean, evidence by the scientists that the bodies had to have been in this grave since 1918.

AGRBear
Logged

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152
Reply #82
« on: June 04, 2004, 12:50:50 AM »
Greg_King Offline
Knyaz
****
I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 534

View Profile WWW

Ivan Koryakov and Lydmilla Koryakova, probably the two most experienced forensic anthropologists of the Russians who exhumed the grave and assisted in the first examinations, concluded that yes, the bodies had been in the grave for approximately 70 years or so, based a number of factors.  They were not "recent" plants-a judgment with which everyone we talked to for "Fate of the Romanovs" and indeed everyone involved-Maples, Falsetti, Levine, France-at the US end, agreed.

However, for what it's worth, I do think the grave was opened perhaps twice-I suspect once in the late 1920s, under Stalin's orders (at the same time as Anna Anderson began to get a lot of publicity in the West), perhaps to see how many bodies really were there, and again sometime between 1979 or 1980 and 1991; we go into the evidence for this second opening in "Fate," and it seems pretty conclusive to me.  But we don't think it was to plant bodies or evidence-probably curiosity, or even accidental.  The first, back in the 1920s, would, I think, have been to ascertain how many were present, to corroborate what Yurovsky said; I don't think it's necessarily an accident that only after 1928 do the various accounts become quite specific regarding Anastasia being cremated-as if they feared AA might be the genuine article (which has nothing to do with the claim itself, mind you-merely the perception on the part of the Soviets) and thus began to pepper statements with accounts of her death.

One conundrum is not only the state of the exhumed remains-Koryakova was horrified at how disarticulated the skeletons were-it was not the ordinary result of disintegration, nor the side-effects of the earlier digs-but more to the point-that two-thirds of what should have been there was simply missing-they never recovered enough bones to account for three human beings, much less nine, though they had the correct number of skulls, six still attached to spinal columns and vertebrae (meaning they weren't just tossed in to provide the missing numbers).  Maples told me he had worked on cases where only portions of buried bodies were recovered-that was normal-but usually the most you could expect to be missing were 50-100 bones tops per person; here, far more were absent.  And it can't be put down to simple disintegration (Koryakova said no when asked about this) nor to the various digs and exhumations-they just weren't there.  Even taking into account the expected amount of missing skeletal remains, the Romanov grave puzzled all of the scientists with its sheer lack of bones.  I suspect (only a theory) that some of these were probably exhumed either in the 1920s or between 1980-91 and disappeared into some lab in Moscow to be analyzed.  There's never been another explanation for this-and the grave itself was intact though disturbed, meaning it hadn't been dug up by animals or forraged-a difficult task anyway given the layers of railway ties, stones, brush, and more ties that had been placed on top of it.

Greg King
Logged
Reply #83
« on: June 14, 2004, 07:23:38 PM »
brielle14 Offline
Newbie
*
I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 8

View Profile

Quote
After 20 minutes, the job still wasn't done:  "When they laid one of the daughters on the stretcher, she cried out and covered her face with her arm.  The others [the daughters] also turned out to be alive.  We couldn't shoot anymore with the open doors the shots could have been heard on the street.  And if the bodies were thrown still alive on the truck? If they were driven out of the city with the girls still moaning?  "It is easy to write that they 'checked,' says Radzinsky, "but how could they really have checked in that smoke, in that horror, in that fever amid the pools of blood'?"


I read this quote recently in an article titled: "The Mystery of the Romanov Bones" from a Vanity Fair issue dated from 1993. Does anyone think that the possibility of one of the daughters escaping was possible, based on this quote?
Logged
Reply #84
« on: June 15, 2004, 05:56:03 PM »
AGRBear Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
The road to truth is the best one to travel. Posts: 6596

View Profile WWW

Twenty minutes is a long time to be shooting in a basement room.  

How many claimed to be shooters?  With Rifles?  Hand guns? Shotguns?

Were there any bullets among the bones?

Did any of the shooters suffer wounds from bullets glancing off the walls?



AGRBear
Logged

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152
Reply #85
« on: June 15, 2004, 06:03:22 PM »
AGRBear Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
The road to truth is the best one to travel. Posts: 6596

View Profile WWW

 <<Maples told me he had worked on cases where only portions of buried bodies were recovered-that was normal-but usually the most you could expect to be missing were 50-100 bones tops per person; here, far more were absent.>>

Then it is possible that the bodies were not originally buried in the shallow grave in July 1918 and it is possible the bodies may have originally been buried  elsewhere.... Maybe in Aug. or Sept. 1918 or 1919 or 1920 the bodies were placed in the shallow grave where the communists claimed the CHEKA buried them in July 1918....?

AGRBear
Logged

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152
Reply #86
« on: June 16, 2004, 04:13:22 AM »
ChristineM Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
Posts: 2882

View Profile

I cannot understand the romantic notion that Anastasia survived.   On the contrary, my hope would be that she did not survive.   The alternative is unimaginable.   Who would want to survive in those circumstances?  The very idea is extremely cruel.   Just because it may fit neatly into a Hollywood movie, does not take account of the fact that she was a human being with feelings like the rest of us.

Just think for a moment.   Would you want to survive having witnessed the slaughter of your entire family and then rejection by those relatives who were left... homeless... rootless?   No thank you.

tsaria
Logged
Reply #87
« on: June 16, 2004, 04:58:37 AM »
Adele Offline
Newbie
*
Posts: 73

View Profile

Quote
I cannot understand the romantic notion that Anastasia survived.   On the contrary, my hope would be that she did not survive.   The alternative is unimaginable.   Who would want to survive in those circumstances?  The very idea is extremely cruel.   Just because it may fit neatly into a Hollywood movie, does not take account of the fact that she was a human being with feelings like the rest of us.

Just think for a moment.   Would you want to survive having witnessed the slaughter of your entire family and then rejection by those relatives who were left... homeless... rootless?   No thank you.

tsaria



Actually, many people have 'survived having witnessed the slaughter of' ones entire family; it's called WAR.  And, I know of many people who have no other realtives after getting out of Concentration Camps in WW2.  Even so, they are very happy just being alive.  That's not to say they are also deeply saddened by what happened.  It was a nightmare.  But they survived and nothing is better than Life!  For most people, that is.  At least the alternative isn't a pleasant thought.

Also, to give respect to those who are fascinated by the Anastasia Survival story; I feel  that Mystery is at the root of the fascination and mystery intriques most people.  Also, it tells a story of Redemption in an archetypal way: that there was a man in that horrible group who murdered the family, who at the last moment actually felt compassion for the young girl who was still alive.....so much so, that he helped her escape.

I personally don't believe anyone could have survived, but I have an open mind; there are just so many conflicting stories as to what happened that anything could be true.
Logged
Reply #88
« on: June 16, 2004, 07:50:59 AM »
rskkiya
Guest

Both Adele and Tsaria have very valid points. But ghoulish as this may sound, I must agree with those who dont accept the survivor theory -(charming tho' it might seem.)

There were only 11 bodies to be disposed of after the execution and although many folks here may hate the revolutionaries-- I feel certain that they could count.  

Someone would have noticed.  
Logged
Reply #89
« on: June 16, 2004, 01:57:27 PM »
AGRBear Offline
Velikye Knyaz
****
The road to truth is the best one to travel. Posts: 6596

View Profile WWW

Isn't this the point of our discussion?  To ask questions such as:

Who did the counting?  CHEKA.

Can they be trusted in their count?  No.  

And, later, it was the communists who were giving out the facts.  Could they be trusted?  No.

So,  it's up to others to discover the truth.

AGRBear
Logged

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 29 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Website by Pallasart - Austin Web Design