Author Topic: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal  (Read 53946 times)

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Offline lexi4

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #165 on: October 14, 2006, 06:32:43 PM »
Imperial Angel,
I hope you listen to the interview Bear posted for you. If I recall, it has been awhile since I read the book, Shay looks at plots/plans to save the IF. It is not difficult for me to believe there were discussions/plots/plans to try to save the IF. I don't recall that Shay ever says that any one of those plots succeeded, but again I am doing this from memory.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #166 on: October 16, 2006, 04:11:50 PM »
Well, some of the book undoubtedly has accuracies. Most books about historical subjects have some truth unless they are totally off the wall. I am not saying this one is so. What I am saying is that I read it, and the author's central thesis is silly, and she can't come up with any credible backing for it. I think this is is best left on the shelf. But there was a secret underworld of plots of you will, certainly. Perhaps this book explores that in detail better than most-but read it only for that reason.I did learn much about plots from it.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #167 on: October 16, 2006, 07:08:21 PM »
Perhaps you should read this recent article:

[www.timesonline.co.uk]

Much of what Shay wrote about in her book, was found in the diary  of Captain Stephen Alley, second in command of the British intelligence mission in Petrograd. I have found that it is best to take a wait and see attitude with books like Shay's and this diariy apparently confirms some of what she wrote. New information always seems to come to light. I think Shay broke ground with her book. I could never believe that there were no plans or plots to try to save the IF. She did not say that those plans or plots were successful, merely that they existed.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #168 on: October 17, 2006, 08:31:05 AM »
Yes, there were plots to save the IF in foreign countries that may not have had made their way into the annals of more conventional history books. I am not saying there weren't. Some plots are remembered, and some not. But, at the same time, does not this author say one of them was successful? That was the way I read her book anyway. I have nothing against the idea of secret plots, but none of them was successful.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #169 on: October 17, 2006, 09:55:12 AM »
Yes, there were plots to save the IF in foreign countries that may not have had made their way into the annals of more conventional history books. I am not saying there weren't. Some plots are remembered, and some not. But, at the same time, does not this author say one of them was successful? That was the way I read her book anyway. I have nothing against the idea of secret plots, but none of them was successful.

I don't think she did, but I can't recall for sure. I will look through the book tonight to see.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #170 on: October 17, 2006, 12:18:13 PM »
Maybe I misread the book. I did have a hard time understanding parts of it, I admit. I read this a while back, too, so maybe my memory is off. But I thought she said the plot succeeded which is unhistorical, of course there were many plots, but we all know what happened to the Imperial Family in the end.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #171 on: October 17, 2006, 04:07:48 PM »
Maybe I misread the book. I did have a hard time understanding parts of it, I admit. I read this a while back, too, so maybe my memory is off. But I thought she said the plot succeeded which is unhistorical, of course there were many plots, but we all know what happened to the Imperial Family in the end.

I'm curious now. I know I wasn't left with the impression that any of the plots succeeded. But like I said, it has been awhile since I did read it. So now I'm curious enough to go through the book again. ;D
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #172 on: October 17, 2006, 06:01:02 PM »
In my opinion was that, had McNeal just focused on the plots, it would have been a very interesting book. That was a part of the Romanov story that had not been well covered before, and she certainly had viable topic. Where I had problem with "Secret" was when she jumped from the plots to survival of the Imperial Family, or part of it. The ground is a bit shakier there, and like alot of books that deal with suvivors, she does not explicity state what she feels happened, she just dances with the innundo. For me, that spoiled what might have been a more enjoyable reading experience.

Offline lexi4

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #173 on: October 17, 2006, 06:32:14 PM »
In my opinion was that, had McNeal just focused on the plots, it would have been a very interesting book. That was a part of the Romanov story that had not been well covered before, and she certainly had viable topic. Where I had problem with "Secret" was when she jumped from the plots to survival of the Imperial Family, or part of it. The ground is a bit shakier there, and like alot of books that deal with suvivors, she does not explicity state what she feels happened, she just dances with the innundo. For me, that spoiled what might have been a more enjoyable reading experience.

I appreciated the book because of the discussion about the plots. It has always been unthinkable to me that no one had any plan to save the IF. I just never could believe that. And I still can't recall her specifically stating that anyone from the IF survived, but I know that I read it a while back and that my brain doesn't have a big enough hard drive. :D
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #174 on: October 18, 2006, 12:28:35 PM »
Well, then I believe she did say that one of the plots succeeded. I think she does dance around the subject quite a bit without giving a conclusive answer. That is true, but to my mind reading her book, I felt like she said that they survived, which of course they didn't. I think it is instructive to learn about secret plots, there is nothing wrong with that. You learn much from her book about them, for sure. But survival? No, none of the plots succeeded, however interesting it is to debate might have beens.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #175 on: October 21, 2006, 05:27:29 PM »
More on Murmansk:

I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #176 on: October 21, 2006, 05:48:35 PM »
I googled:

http://www.shout.net/~bigred/TsarMyst.htm

Shay McNeal's book is mentioned.

Brotherhood of St. John of Tobolsk is also linked to Reilly, Ace of Spies.

I'll go copy a little and bring it back here:
>>The preliminary escape direction for the Russian imperial family was from Ekaterinburg towards the north. Brought into play to assist the Romanovs was the Hudson's Bay Company which was paid by the British to oversee construction of a "safe house" in Murmansk for the endangered imperial family. When "Ace of Spies" Sidney Reilly went to Russia early in 1918, he went by way of "Romanov-on-the-Murman" (Murmansk). The Brotherhood of St. John of Tobolsk, founded to rescue the Romanovs, had their own secret network meant to hide the Tsar and his family in Russia, probably in the far north. The brotherhood's secret symbol was the reverse swastika, a Tibetan good luck symbol. Sidney Reilly, one of whose roles was agent for the Metropolitan-Vickers Company, may have been influential in arranging to berth a British torpedo boat at a river near Tobolsk. Planned was that the boat would go far north with its passengers, past the Arctic Circle. Thus, several planned escape routes were being formed.<<


AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Bob_the_builder

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #177 on: May 18, 2007, 09:13:30 PM »
I'm sorry, but I hate this book. Not only did it not make since, but it was outdated upon publication. Does she really buy what she writes? Does she really believe the IF escaped through a hole in the ground by the British troops?

Penny Wilson did a very good review of the book on her website: http://www.kingandwilson.com/BookReviews/ShayBook.htm


Historybuff_262

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #178 on: June 10, 2007, 02:45:12 PM »
Hi, I was just wondering if The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar by Shay McNeal was reliable or not worth reading at all.

Offline s.v.markov

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #179 on: June 11, 2007, 08:16:23 AM »
There is already a thread on this, with 177 posts so far ! It's currently on page 2 of the Books forum.