Author Topic: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal  (Read 54370 times)

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Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2005, 09:49:09 PM »
Quote
Hi donaldrynolds,

Why do you think it is, with the Russian archives now open to the West for scrutiny, that there has not been one single document presented for public scrutiny, that clearly states that any member of the I.F. had actually survived the massacre?

_____________________________________________

Today at 12:56pm, donaldreynolds wrote:

"My question - sent to her today and now to you.  Why do so many people here on this forum seem to accept the Soviet point of view without truly submitting it to a critical analysis?"

_____________________________________________

Perhaps you could clarify your view? I respectfully invite you to present your contentions here so that we can all analyze what it is that you refute.

Thank you.
  

Well, here goes.  I'm sure you realize that the archives are not "open." I know from academics here that the archives are not really open as we would think "open" to mean.  

The reason - in the early ninities the western intelligence services went in and copied extensively.  When it was discovered that so many of the files had been copied the archives tighten right up.  Furthermore, the Presidential archives have not been opened to westerners.  And the sensitive archives of the Central Committee, much like the Presidential ones, is rumoured to remain completely out of touch.  If people tell you they have copies of documents from these areas ask them to prove it.

Please let me know what you have that contradicts the above situation that I described.  Just check with academics who have worked in Russia for the last ten years and you will see I am under the correct impression about lack of open access.

In fact your use of the word scrutiny only applies to what some in Russia want westerners to scrutinize.  I really urge you to talk to authorities or some one like the head of the archives at the Hoover Institute in California.  I'm sure they will enlighten you and confirm the status of the lack of openness of the archives.

Donald

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2005, 09:20:47 AM »
Donald,  I think part of the problem is that most posters know a lot about the Romanovs but very very little about the intelligence services which were working from all sides during that time period.

When I talk about "rescues" or mention names, most posters don't even know what I'm trying to tell them.  And, I think that is the case with McNeal.

I, also, agree that she placed too much weight on the book Rescue of the Czar and just should have said that after reading it, she used it only as a stepping stone to  her search into the truth which had not yet been reported.

AGRBear
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2005, 10:33:44 AM »
This is all very interesting, but I still don't have a clear idea of what makes this book original or worth reading. What plot or plots does McNeal discuss? Does she talk about the "Tsar's House" at Murmansk that Phil Tomaselli informs us was built by British intelligence? Does she have new and credible information about a British (or German or whatever) plot to rescue the tsar? In other words, aside from the discredited Rescuing the Tsar, what (or who) precisely were her sources?
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2005, 04:53:16 PM »
I am quite sure she is not the least bit interested in any future volume on the subject. Once was enough !
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2005, 07:28:24 PM »
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I am quite sure she is not the least bit interested in any future volume on the subject. Once was enough !


Hello,

Yes, the impression I got from her was that she has moved on.  I did get the impression that she is more interested in the opinion of people like Dr. Pipes of Harvard.  She writes me regarding "people with a genuine interest in history" and hopes that they are acquainted with the new information.

Just curious. Were you being disparaging?  If so why is there more than enough sarcasm on this chat room?  Please tell me what purpose it serves?

Thanks,

Donald


Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2005, 07:40:26 PM »
Hello,

It is too bad about this Rescuing thing.  I addressed that last night on my response to the DNA post that I first posted.  I did not get the impression that she was obsessed by the book. Actually I think she is intrigued as to its intelligence role in obfuscating the disappearance of the Romanovs. When I reviewed the past posts it seems like one person here started a diatribe and the piling on that some people talk about occurred. (?)

Donald

Quote
Donald,  I think part of the problem is that most posters know a lot about the Romanovs but very very little about the intelligence services which were working from all sides during that time period.

When I talk about "rescues" or mention names, most posters don't even know what I'm trying to tell them.  And, I think that is the case with McNeal.

I, also, agree that she placed too much weight on the book Rescue of the Czar and just should have said that after reading it, she used it only as a stepping stone to  her search into the truth which had not yet been reported.

AGRBear


Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2005, 07:53:06 PM »
Hello,

What citations do you have - from primary sources - to support what you just wrote?  I think you are the one who started the attacks and colored so many opinion before they read a word of McNeal's book.  At least that is what I see when I review past postings on this subject. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but do cite what you want us to take for fact.

In fact, could you just act responsibily and cite and support what you assert for all to see?  Heresay does not stand for citations.  If you will support your comments then we can have a reasoned discussion. You just seem like someone with an ax to grind. ?

Donald


Quote
The mysterious house near Murmansk was built for a  naval officer whose ship was part of the British fleet involved in the northern contingent of  countries who came to the aid of the Whites.  Oddly, his family had seven members.  He wished to bring his family to this post anticipating a longer stay than was actually the case.  It was either never lived in or  was lived in only briefly.  So much for the Czar's House and, co-incidentally, so much for the claptrap about Rescuing the Czar.  A work of fiction as attested to by its two authors in their voluminous correspondence 1919-1921 which is selectively quoted by McNeal to bolster her case.  E


Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2005, 08:09:58 PM »
Hello,

Yes, she does - just like the Bear said.  And until I see something else as compelling I think that Phil Tomaselli and the Bear have the right assessment.  She talks about several plots that converge in chaos.  She gives different motives for countries like the US and England, as well as the Czechs and Japan to intervene. She cites all her sources and hardly any is thirdhand or hearsay.

Donald



Quote
This is all very interesting, but I still don't have a clear idea of what makes this book original or worth reading. What plot or plots does McNeal discuss? Does she talk about the "Tsar's House" at Murmansk that Phil Tomaselli informs us was built by British intelligence? Does she have new and credible information about a British (or German or whatever) plot to rescue the tsar? In other words, aside from the discredited Rescuing the Tsar, what (or who) precisely were her sources?


Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2005, 08:40:54 PM »
Me disparaging ? I do not think so. That is just the definite impression- in her words no less- that I got from her.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2005, 08:49:18 PM »
Quote
Hello,
I think that Phil Tomaselli and the Bear have the right assessment.  She talks about several plots that converge in chaos.  She gives different motives for countries like the US and England, as well as the Czechs and Japan to intervene. She cites all her sources and hardly any is thirdhand or hearsay.


Thanks for the info. The book sounds very intriguing. I will have to read it, if only to make up my own mind.
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because I have seen no other

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Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2005, 05:30:32 AM »
Hello,

I am pasting in a dialog from another thread as an FYI.  There is genuine bewilderment on my part as to the way "intelligent" adults condult themselves on this board.  Just within the last months have I begun to post on a few sites.  I was warned that chat rooms are like social circles in high school and make it hard on the new kids.  But really isn't that silly?  This is a serious chapter of history.  I agree with Bear you are losing contributors.  

Posts: 9
 Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #228 on: Today at 5:14am »  Quote  Modify  Remove  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
on Today at 12:44am, LisaDavidson wrote:

Donald, I don't get your continuing to bring up the McNeal book on this thread when you have been asked and instructed not to do so.  We all think it is fine to discuss the book, just not in this topic area. I don't see anything at all ambiguous about these requests, and you seem to be intelligent. So, I have to conclude that you are deliberately disregarding the instructions of the Forum Administrator and the requests of the other posters.  

This is not "upsetting the apple cart". This is outright belligerence. Please consider this to be a final warning regarding this thread.


My response:

Terribly sorry about the last portion of my post but the first portion is absolutely germaine.  You too sound intelligent - certainly intelligent enough not to speak to another adult in a God-like fashion.

I feel you are dangerously close to censorship on this site.  I was apologying and moving on but now I too will depart as I have seen other "intelligent" posters do.  

Perhaps you all (who is the "we" for whom you speak) should call yourselves a faternity or sorority not a public discussion forum.  I do not use profanity or rudeness and have addressed all thusly.  

By the way, I already have parents.  But they have never chastised me in such a way.  Even when I commented on their comments they have never attempted to inflect humiliation by labeling me belligerent.  They are too "intelligent" to attempt to manipulate me.

No need to lock a thread or threaten me.  (That also occurs to me to be odd behavior since the subject here is frequently Bolshevism/Communism and Autocracy.) As a result of these attitudes, you loose many competent posters.

Further, as my final thought, perhaps you or the "we" should  try a real scientific peer-review for some of these self-serving agenda written papers and posts.  I don't think you would be insulted just graded poorly.

Donald




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by donaldreynolds »

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2005, 02:32:04 PM »
I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli

Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2005, 07:20:38 PM »
Hello Phil.

I found that bit very convincing in McNeal's book.  She put that together with what she found at the Huson Bay Company and it holds up nicely.  

Maybe Elizaveta's source was working for the Hudson Bay and was the cover for the operation.  But I don't think so.  In her book McNeal said that she consulted an expert on the Hudson Bay, who did her PHD on Hudson Bay.  That expert told her that during that period the provisions on the list for the house were not items any officer or Hudson Bay man would have.

I too am waiting for Elizaveta's source.  

Donald




Quote
I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli


Offline donaldreynolds

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2005, 08:20:03 PM »
Phil,

As to your comments I located the Times of London Review:#11
Sunday Times (UK)
3 June 2001
Book Review
Bones of contention
By John Crossland


THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE TSAR:
The Truth behind the Disappearance of the Romanovs
by Shay McNeal


On a humid July night in 1918, the former imperial family of Russia, together with their servants, were ushered into a basement room of a mansion in Siberia. The door burst open to reveal 11 assassins, one for each victim.
Their commander, Yacov Yurovsky, read out the death sentence and a stunned tsar had time only to plead, "Why, oh why?" before a shell from Yurovsky's
Colt spun him off his feet, split seconds before the assassins' fusillade turned his family into bloody, broken marionettes.

Such has been the generally accepted version of the end of the Romanovs, popularised by the film Nicholas and Alexandra, and enshrined in the Russian official inquiry into the putative Imperial remains found in a
Siberian forest in 1979, secretly reburied and unearthed again in 1991.

Doubts, however, have always remained about the massacre. When the Bolsheviks first proclaimed, within days of the alleged shootings, that they had executed Nicholas II, the announcement was greeted by a wave of scepticism - not least because the tsar's wife and children were specifically excluded from the death notices. Investigations in the 1970s by two BBC
journalists, Anthony Summers and Tom Mangold, asked further questions, in particular of the Sokolov Report, the White Russians' forensic exercise in 1919 which has
formed the basis for the massacre theory. Their powerful case, argued In The File on the Tsar (1976), found much of the evidence implausible.
But Summers and Mangold received a setback with the publication of the Yeltsin Commission's findings in 1991 and with the unmasking of Anna Anderson, the Anastasia claimant, as a fake.

Now Shay McNeal provides a further twist to this inscrutable tale. An American former political consultant turned archival researcher, McNeal was not satisfied with the 1991 commission's verdict, and believed that
Yeltsin had merely wished to close a sordid chapter in Russian history, ensuring the DNA and forensic evidence fitted a politically correct solution. Reopening
the Summers and Mangold line of inquiry, McNeal has drawn on newly declassified files in American and Russian archives in an attempt to prove the existence of a plot (or plots) to rescue the imperial family.


To do that, she needed to discredit the critical scientific tests that were the cornerstone of the 1991 Commission's argument for closing the case on the
Romanovs. McNeal cites an American expert who claims that the clinching evidence, the mtDNA match of the Duke of Edinburgh with the tsarina Alexandra and her children, could not be accepted as proof of identity. It is a claim, incidentally, that Home Office forensic scientists vigorously deny, although they do concede that DNA is never taken as conclusive evidence by itself, but
in conjunction with other tests on the bones, preferably soon after exhumation. These, McNeal asserts, were not done and a question persists about the Russians' handling of the material.

So, a reasonable doubt remains over whether there was a massacre. What case does McNeal make, then, for the family's survival? Her trawl of American Secret Service documents has revealed a string of incidents and relationships between shadowy individuals, apparently innocuous in themselves but which
taken together point to an international plot to save the tsar and dish Bolshevism.

Her important new lead on the Romanov mystery has come from the Hudson Bay Company records, which show a strange obsession among Allied intelligence
operatives with building a luxurious house in Murmansk for seven (the family's number). In June 1918 a company trouble-shooter also working for MI6, and Jonas Lied, a Norwegian Arctic shipping merchant, set up a rescue bid on orders from "C" (Britain's Secret Service head), aimed at spiriting the family up the Siberian river system, then to Murmansk and finally
to England in a motor torpedo boat. That rescue attempt apparently misfired because the "snatch" by their Russian confederates was anticipated by
the local Soviet.

Meanwhile, says McNeal, Sidney Reilly, "the Ace of Spies", was busy arranging a £500,000 ransom to Lenin for the family - bidding against the Kaiser. The most incredible claim ever made for the tsar's escape was in a book, Rescuing the Czar, published in a limited edition in San Francisco in 1920 and withdrawn from circulation almost immediately due to "pressure from on high"
(the British Library has a copy). Although it has hitherto been dismissed as pure fantasy (with its claim that the Romanovs were smuggled out of their prison, via a secret tunnel, to the British consulate across the
street, and thence to Shanghai, via Tibet, ending up with assumed identities in Ceylon) McNeal has applied some lateral thinking to the thesis and discovered
that there was more to it than anyone has realised. She says, "it mirrors many events that we now know had really taken place but which in 1920 could only have been known of by someone who was on the ground at the time".

But does her fascinating search, which includes mysterious Tibetan lamas, disappearing Yangtze gunboats and secret missions by George V's cousin
to Japan, lead us to the tsar? Unfortunately the trail peters out in Ceylon. For all her hard work (including proving that the "execution" Colt revolver was,
according to its serial number, at a Kentucky army barracks at the time), McNeal gets no closer to a definitive answer than anyone else. Perhaps Yacov
Yurovsky was right when he claimed that "the world will never know what we did with them!"

The greatest mystery of the 20th century remains unsolved.

Quote
I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli


Offline AGRBear

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Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2005, 01:04:30 PM »
Gee, it's great to to posting with others who have seen McNeal's book as a source, just as I have.  

I had not read the review and thanks for posting it, donaldreynolds.

Since Reilly was mentioned by McNeal, there is another book, which I've mentioned, is TRUST NO ONE, THE SECRET WORLD OF SIDNEY REILLY by Richard B. Spence.  The reason I mention his book here in McNeal's thread is because the first time I read her book, I didn't have Spence's book.  So, I've sat down, now, and started to reread McNeal's book and then I jump over to  Spence's book and certain pieces of the puzzle are coming togather.

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152