Author Topic: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants  (Read 23302 times)

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Offline synnadene

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Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« on: January 29, 2006, 05:45:25 AM »
MARIA KAROLINE (1821-1844), firstborn daughter of Archduke Rainer and Elisabeth of Savoy; sister of Queen Adelheid of Sardinia-Piemont died when she was 23 years old.

Have sy ever seen a portrait of her? Can sy tell me something about her life?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by synnadene »

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2006, 06:54:55 AM »
Dear synnadene,

it is indeed very hard to find pictures of Archduchess Maria Caroline Auguste Elisabeth Margaretha Dorothea. She was only called "Marie" in her family.

She was born on 06 February 1821 in Milano and died on 23 January 1844 in Vienna. She was laid to rest at the Kaisergruft, Vienna.

She became "Sternkreuzdame" on 14 September 1839.

I found this portrait of the Imperial Family (1834). Marie is the young lady who is sitting on the floor on the left. She is wearing a white dress and she is looking at the children in the middle of the picture.
Her sister Adelheid is the girl in the middle of the picture, who is sitting in front of Empress Caroline Auguste, who is wearing a violet dress. Actually you can only see her face.
I think the girls look older than about 12 or 13 years in this pic.

Hope, I could help ... :)





Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline Marc

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2006, 03:15:40 PM »
Very interesting portrait!  :)

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2006, 07:22:02 AM »
Fascinating portrait - is there a key to the individuals in it?

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2006, 01:17:03 PM »
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2006, 02:48:48 AM »
Many thanks, a great historical portrait!

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2006, 07:22:42 AM »
Dear discussion group,

I just read in Habsburg Intim by Chris Sradtlaender the lifestory of Archduke Ernst (1824-1899), second son of Archduke Rainer (1783-1853) and Elisabeth Princess of Savoy-Carignano (1800-1856).

Archduke Ernst was known as a man of honour, although he had built up debts. But officially no one knew this of course, because his brothers Leopold, Sigismund, Rainer and Heinrich always helped him when he was in trouble. So who cares? He lived in his beautiful palais in Laibach and enjoyed his life.

Things changed when Ernst died in 1899. Suddenly there were three persons who claimed to be Ernst's children by his wife - although he wasn't married officially - and they wanted to have their inheritance.

Apparently Archduke Ernst had married a woman called Laura Skublics de Velike et Bessenyö (1826-1865) from Hungary in Laibach on 26 April 1858. As Laura had already been divorced and had two daughters, Emperor Franz Joseph had never given Ernst the permission to marry her. Laura's and Ernst's children were Laura (1859-?), Ernst Heinrich (1859-1920), Heinrich (1861-1888) and Clotilde (1863-?). They were given the surname "von Wallburg", but other sources say that Franz Joseph caused their baptismal records to be changed and to show their names as "Skublics" in 1909.

According to my book, Ernst's didn't care about his children after their mother Laura had died in 1865. Archduke Rainer, Ernst's brother, brought them to Hinterbrühl where they had to live in a palais. Sometimes they also lived in Schönkirchen, a possession of Archduke Rainer. Ernst was also there, but his children were only allowed to see him from a distance. They were treated so badly that Heinrich commited suicide in 1888.

But what do we know about the other children? Laura had to marry Dr. Sedelius Pegger who was much older than her. Her younger sister Clotilde suffered from some mental illness and lived with Laura. Ernst lived in Vienna and built up depts. He wanted to ask his father for help, but he didn't want to see him. Later Emperor Franz Joseph sent a man to him to give him some money. He was also told not to try again to see his father. Then he had different jobs, for example he worked as a waiter.

Does anybody know more about Archduke Ernst and his illegitmate children? Do you think that Ernst really married Laura?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 07:25:45 AM by MarieCharlotte »
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline José

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2006, 10:43:14 AM »
According to P.Theroff it was Clothilde who married Dr.Pegger, 20 years her elder, and when he died she remarried a man 17 years elder.

As to Heinrich's death when he was 27 y.old, wouldn't he be a bit disturbbed ?

http://pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/austria.html

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2006, 03:54:33 PM »
That's strange, because I have a photo of Laura and her first husband Pegger.  ???
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2006, 04:19:11 AM »
Could you send this photo here?

In "Die Habsburger - ein biographisches Lexikon" (I think it was the one by Brigitte Hamann), a quite huge and detalled one, which I had borrowed several times at the German library in Frankfurt there is an article on Archduke Ernst, where the Wallburg children  are mentioned. You will certainly know this book, but there the case with the Wallburgs is called  "not to be proven". It is said that after the death of Ernst the three "Wallburg descendants" suddenly (the forth had already committed suicide) appeared and wanted to be accpted as legal heirs of Ernst. They tried to prove that Archduke Ernst had been married to Laura von Skublitz (called Baronin Wallburg) and had lived with her in Laibach. Because the (said) marriage was not legitimized by Franz Joseph anyway, the "heirs" did not get any heritage. But the brothers of Ernst paid education money for the (alleged) children of Ernst.
It is also said in the article that there may have been something with false documents, and the whole case does not seem very secure to me, because it is clearly said that "the case could not be clarified". The Wallburgs shall have published two books, one is mentioned in the dictionary:

Ernst Baron von Wallburg, Ein Justizmord...Leipzig,

Other literature, on which the article seems to been based : o.J.; Eugen von Szimics, Die heimliche Ehe des Erzherzogs Ernst von Österreich und seine Kinder, Zürich, 1901.

I think the whole case is strange. It always makes me worried that there are so many cases in history (especially with alleged children, often people, who want money) and cases that cannot been clarified.
It would be interestesting to find more literature, which has an "objective" opinion towards that Walllburg case. Unfortunately until now I haven´t found more, only the article by Hamann.

It´s not proof, but it would be interesting, if you should have any pictures of the children, if they show resemblences to Ernst
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2006, 04:25:02 AM »
One thing more: Not that I am understood wrongly, I did not want to say the case is wrong or something, because I have not enough knowledge about it and have to right to say something like that.  I only wanted to say that there are evidently different opinions. Your book seems to have no doubts, if the case is true?
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2006, 05:30:28 AM »
Thank you very much! That´s wonderful ...I have never seen these pictures of them!...so the story seems to be rather true?

Does your book/ your literature have any doubts at the story?

I only ask, because of the doubts in the Hamann book make me confused especially the sentence with the wrong documents...
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2006, 05:37:44 AM »
At Paul Theroff's website you can read: According to some sources this marriage never occurred; however, Daniel Willis has told me that he has irrefutable proof that the marriage did occur and that the children were originally named "von Wallburg" but that in 1909 the Emperor caused their baptismal records to be changed to show their names as "Skublics". He has told me that he will publish his research in the future, so I will give no further details here.

In Habsburg Intim the author Chris Stadtlaender doesn't have any doubts about this story. But here we have to be careful, because Stadtlaender loves rumours and half-truths.

Then I had a look into my Habsburg book by Alois Jahn. He mentions Ernst's "secret marriage" and "four children (Barone von Wallburg) by Archduke Ernst: Laura, Ernst, Heinrich and Clothilde". It looks like he didn't have doubts either.
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2006, 05:44:55 AM »
Thanks for those infos..it´s always interesting to have opinions from more than one historian or authour..! ;)

Interesting is that there maybe still further things and documents that a reseacher want to publish...

Do you know that dictionary by Hamann mentioned by me?


La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2006, 05:55:24 AM »
Do you know that dictionary by Hamann mentioned by me?

Of course. I bought it in Vienna some years ago.  ;)
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth