Author Topic: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants  (Read 24537 times)

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Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2006, 06:05:42 AM »
So you already knew everything what´s written there... ::) maybe it´s the only book with doubts?

It´s strange!

I think Heinrich (the son? of Ernst) has also a resemblence to the sister of Archduke Ernst, Adelheid, especially around the eyes. The picture of Ernst is not so clearly that´s a pity...

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Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2006, 07:05:40 AM »
So you already knew everything what´s written there... ::) maybe it´s the only book with doubts.

I forgot to read the text about Ernst in Hamann's book. So it was definitely new to me what you have written. Thanks.
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2006, 08:11:42 AM »

Do you know, if there are still descendents of the Wallburgs today? ???
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Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2006, 10:40:50 AM »
Do you know, if there are still descendents of the Wallburgs today? ???

That's a very good question ...  ??? According to Paul Theroff's sites, Ernst von Wallburg was married to Maria Juliana Schaden (1863-1948). They had six children: Heinrich Ernst Rainer (born 19 April 1891), Chlodwig, (born in June 1893), Ernestine Maria Paulina Hedwig Anna (born in May 1895),  Maria Auguste (1896-1975), Ernst Walter (born 12 January 1899) and Egon (born in May 1900).

Egon married a woman called Elisabeth Lang in the 1920's. They had a daughter: Eva Maria Skublics who was born in 1929. She was married to Ferenc Pados which sounds rather Hungarian. But why was Eva's surname "Skublics" and not "von Wallburg"? Maybe it is true that Emperor Franz Joseph didn't allow Archduke Rainer's children - if they were his children ... - to bear the name "von Wallburg" since 1909. Anyway, Eva would be 77 years now, so she could still be alive.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 10:42:40 AM by MarieCharlotte »
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
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Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2006, 04:48:39 AM »
I have looked on different genealogies and generally the story seems to be accepted, I have also found that Ernst von Wallburg had many children, but I don´t find anything about descendants of them apart from Egons daughter Eva Maria, who you mentioned. I did not find anything about her life and if she is still alive. A pity. The thing with the names is quite strange,too,  because on some genealogies they are called von "Wallburg" and on others "Skublics", the site genea Portugal says "Wallburg-Scublics" as a double name, strange. I wonder what is the right version... ???
However there seem to be also descendants of Clothilde, the (possible) daughter of Archduke Ernst, who was born in 1863:
Walfried Pegger, Edith Pegger and Lydia Pegger, unfortunately I cannot find anything about descendants of them.
One question: Are you sure that the picture, which you sent shows Laura with her husband? Because the genealogies I "studied" do not mention any marriage of Laura (especially not with Dr. Pegger), but a marriage between Clothilde, her sister, with him. Can it be that the picture shows Clothilde and not Laura? According to Genea Portugal Clothilde had a second marriage with an Eugen Szimic von Majdangrad (I hope I spelled it correctly). This seems to be the person, who has written a book about the Wallburg case, because he was mentioned by Hamann as authour of a book: "Die heimliche Ehe des Erzherzogs Ernst von Österreich und seine Kinder" (already mentioned)
May I know, where you got the pictures of the Wallburg children from? Are they from the book Habsburg intim?
I really wonder, if the picture with the husband may be Clothilde instead of Laura, otherwise something does not fit :-X
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2006, 06:47:21 AM »
Yes, I found this photograph in "Habsburg Intim" and there you can read that it shows Laura and her second husband. According to Stadtlaender Clotilde suffered from a mental illness and was the only one who didn't try to meet her possible father Archduke Ernst. Maybe the author made a mistake, because in every genealogy I've checked, Clotilde was married to Pegger and not her sister Laura.
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2006, 02:45:21 PM »
One question: How were the details from the book by Stadtlaender collected? As I read in the Hamann book the "Wallburgs" firstly became known after the death of their father. So who collected the infos about their childhood and so on?  Were there any "witnessed" or something?
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2006, 03:41:14 PM »
At the beginning of the book, Stadtlaender wrote about different persons she met while working on her book. For example, she mentions interviews with Archduchess Franziska ("Gräfin Wernberg") or with Nancy Vetsera and her cousin Gräfin Hoyos with whom she talked about Mayerling. But she doesn't give any information about her sources in the case of Archduke Ernst's illegitimate children.

Does anybody know Daniel Willis who possibly knows more about this story? I guess he ws a member of the GARMB which doesn't exist anymore.
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2006, 04:08:02 AM »
I don´t want to say anything wrong, I don´t know the book, Habsburg intim by Stadtlaender, but if she really does not give any sources, where her infos on the Wallburg case come from , it´s a bit strange ::)
Aren´t there footnotes or something? ???
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2006, 05:23:12 AM »
Aren´t there footnotes or something? ???

There's nothing, only the text.
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
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Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2006, 02:16:38 PM »
It´s a pity that she does not give further references concerning her explanations about that case. Is she a historian? Historians usually must do that, otherwise.... :o :-\
It would be interesting to know, how (other) historians consider that case. It would be be interesting to me to know about further literature. I think Hamann quoted literature, which was written by the family itself, the book by one of the Wallburg descendants, but she confessed that the case is "open". Such non clarified cases always make me crazy :( There is one other case in history- what cannot be named here- which I am occupied with for six years now and I don´t get any foot on the stage in that thing >:(
I will try to do further researchs concerning this here, but if you- you have much more literature!- should find any further proof about that case, please post it. :D
It would be interesting as well to contact one of the descendants of today, but you know my story about the bad experiences with such people, and I don´t have much hope that I would have success, that anybody of them tells me more. Would be thankful for any idea. I think historians would say,"not such an important thing" (maybe), but I must say despite of this, it interests me! :)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 02:20:56 PM by britt.25 »
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline monamari

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2006, 04:13:48 PM »
The descendants of Clothilde von Wallburg are: Walfried died in 1914, Edith married italian count Alessandro Caravadossi d'Aspromonte and they have one son, Roberto, and three daughters, Vittoria, Adriana  and...; Lydia married in 1911 italian Benedetto Amari and they have five children: Michele (1912-2005), Sedulio (1914- 1998),  Domenico Emerico  (1915), Franca (1917-1996), Maria Clotilde (1920).
I'm the  daughter of Domenico Amari and if you are interested we can give you more informatios about this part of family and we have also some photos of Ernest and Laura Habsbourg.

Monica Amari

monamari@tin.it

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2006, 08:37:05 AM »
Desdendants of Clothilde von Wallburg

Clothilde von Wallburg, b at Laibach 12 aug 1863, d at Trieste 1 Jul 1953,
m 1st at Absa  m Tyrol 18 aug, Sedul Pegger (b1841; d at Gnes nr Bozen 5 jan 1891) an had  this issue:

1a- Walfried, b at Lienz oct 1885, naval officier, d in the Atlantic Ocean in 1914
2a- Edith, b at Lienz 6 oct 1888 d at Trieste 16 Oct 1979,
m at San Remo 12  Dec 1907 Alessandro Caravadossi dei conti d'Aspromonte  dei baroni di Toetto della Scarena,
an had this issue
a- Lea
b- Vittoria
c- Adriana
d- Roberto

3a- Lydia b at Lienz  8 Mar 1890 d at Roma 3 Jun 1982,
m at Formia 29 Jun 1911 Benedetto Amari (b at Partanna, Trapani 2 oct 1860, d at Partanna 2 Avr 1921)
and had this issue
a- Michele (1912-2005),
b- Sedulio (1914- 1998)
c-   Domenico Emerico  (1915)
d-  Franca (1917-1996)
e-  Maria Clotilde (1920)


m 2ndly at Wien 11 May 1898 Eugen  Szimic Edler  von Majdangrad (b at Brescia 24 Aug 1846)


With a lot of Thanks to Mrs. Amari!



La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Dan Willis

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2006, 05:19:02 PM »
Hello,

I want to thank Ulrike over at the Royal Forum for bringing it to my attention this topic was being discussed here.

Nearly everything that is currently known about the descendants prior to this tread was the result of my research on this family over the past 10 or so years. What I know started with a small amount of info published in Burke's Royal Families of the World All other supplemental info came from baptismal, marriage, death and burial records. The culmination of this information is available at my website The House of Habsburg. The link is www.angelfire.com/empire/houseofwillis

I was extremely happy to see new information provided from Ms. Amari about the descendants of Clothilde von Wallburg, as I never was able to get past the info given in Burke's. I have e-mailed Ms. Amari for more info about her immediate family and hope she will be kind enough to answer.

I have been to Budapest 3 times in search of more details and each time have come away with a small piece of the puzzle. However, there is much still missing. I still do not know where any of the grandchildren of Archduke Ernst are buried, but I have been through the major cemeteries of Budapest without finding them. The only person I found was his daughter-in-law, Mrs. Ernő Skublics, nee Maria Schaden.

The marriage and descendants of Egon Skublics I got from a niece of Elizabeth Lang, Egon's wife. Egon's daughter Eva Maria is still alive as far as I know. I wrote to her asking for more details, but all I got back was a confirmation from her that she was indeed Egon's daughter and Ernő's granddaughter. The names of her children were given by the cousin, I have attempted to find them but with little luck so far.

I also have an account written by the clerk at a trial in 1910 where the facts and conclusion were written out concerning the marriage of Archduke Ernst & Laura Skublics. The trial was brought about by Ernst's son, Ernő, in an effort to reclaim his surname which had been stricken from him the previous year by Emperor Franz Joseph. FJ claimed the marriage never took place and therefore the children were illegitimate and were not entitled to any surname other than Skublics. The court heard testimony from a priest (who was a cousin to Laura) who said he married Archduke Ernst & Laura Skublics on 26 April 1858 in Laibach (now called Ljubljana). According to the priest, Ernst's brother, Heinrich was best man. The court ruled that a religious marriage took place but it was not a legal marriage because it had taken place against the express orders of the Emperor. Apparently Ernst had asked permission to marry Laura Skublics and had been denied.

To back up this court record, I have copies of the birth records of each of Ernst & Laura's 4 children. Each one has the name von Wallburg on it, the name that was adopted by Laura after the marriage. Laura, Ernő, and Heinrich all have a single line through the child's surname box and written above it is Skublics de Velike et Bessenyő and each one has a note stating in German "name corrected by Imperial Decree" and date it was changed. They were all changed in 1909. Apparently Clothilde's was not changed because she was already married and was no longer using "von Wallburg".

Ernst's surviving son, Ernő was legally named Skublics, but insisted on being called Baron von Wallburg (Wallburg Baro in Hungarian) the rest of his life according to his obituary in 1920. I went to the loaction given in his obituary as his last residence, but it apparently had been torn down, because a car dealership is there now. There seems to have been a pattern of ignoring one's children in this family. Ernst had nothing to do with his kids, and apparently neither did Ernő. Neither his wife nor his children were mentioned in the obit. and his wife is not buried with him she is buried alone.

I would be happy to answer any further questions abaout this family. Just e-mail me at HouseofWillis@yahoo.com

Dan Willis, author
House of Habsburg
Descendants of Louis XIII
Descendants of King George I of Great Britain

Offline britt.25

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Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2006, 05:10:11 AM »
Dear Dan Willis,

Thanks very much for all these explanations! The story is really very interesting. Is it really true that Ernst did not have any  contact with the children and that Laura was burried somewhere else? As far as I got to know it, brother Rainer was against a close relation of his brother Ernst and his children, but despite of that they saw their father, even if only on distance.

How was it? Do you have photos of the sons Heinrich and Ernst? Once here were sent some, but evidently - so says a family member- they are not the onces, which they are said to represent. They came from the book "Habsburg intim" by Stadtlaender, do you maybe know that book and know, if the photos of Ernst children could be wrong?

Thanks in advance!
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)