Author Topic: Realistically, was escape possible?  (Read 31149 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #120 on: February 28, 2006, 02:30:23 PM »
Clever fellows those Moscow Soviets, who accomplished the task of getting everyone to believe what they wanted everyone to believe.  

And, to show how clever,  the Moscow Soviets even had the Ural Soviet's believing they were competely on their own in this decision due to the approaching Whites.

There was no need to send in troops to rescue Nicholas II and the others.  The trial had been a good idea but then it may have back fired and they couldn't take the chance.  So, with a few words and a nod in early July,  the Ural Soviets leaders went back to Siberia and they would  give the orders to execute Nicholas II and the others,  and so the Ural Soviets would  have the bloody hands, take the credit,  and the hands of the Moscow Soviets would  appear clean.

My thoughts on this matter are not what the majority of historians believe but it's not the first time I've stood among the minority in this world of ours.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #121 on: February 28, 2006, 03:43:17 PM »
Quote

...[in part]....
Two large problems: the lack of Moscow's control over the Ural Soviet (due to the Urals disapproval of Moscow and unwillingness to cooperate) and the deafening silence on Moscow's end.

...


THE FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold p. 317:

>>In late June....we know that Commissar Goloshchokin was called from Ekaterinburg to Moscow for consulatations.  We know he had talks with Chairman Sverdlov of the Central Executive Committe, and he probably also saw Lenin.  The matter of the Romanovs came up, and it was at this point that Ekaterinburg was ordered to change the guard at the Ipatiev House... Then on 6 July, before Goloshchokin left for home, the German ambassador was murdered.<<

>>...The commmissar was back in Ekaterinburg by 14 July, and we know that he, Chairman Beloborodov, and Commissar urovsky, held talks far into the night, nuddled in Room 3 of their headquarts, the Hotel America.

Since THE FILE ON THE TSAR was publsihed in 1976,  additional information has surfaced.

Another leader, Berzin,  had direct contact with high officals in Moscow.

Who was the Berzin?  He was the Commander-in-chief of the Northern Ural-Siberian Front.  Radzinsky tells us more:

p. 343 THE LAST STAR  by Edvard Radzinsky:

>>...Reinhold  Berzin, whom Moscow had evidently instuctued to set the family's execution in motion.  This was logicial:  he could be guarantee that the Ural Soviet did not do this before Ekateinrburg's fate at the hands of the Czechs had been decided.  Only he, the commander of the army, could know this fateful hour precisely.  Only he, the commander-in-chief, could issue an order to a military commissar.  On July 16, realizing that the town'[s situation was hopeless, Berzin clearly gave his order, sentencing eleven people to death...<<

>>In 1939 Reinhold  Berzin would be shot in Stalin's camps.<<

Reinhold Berzin had first been in contact with Ekaterinubrg in June when Moscow had sent him to inquiry about the false rumor which had spread in Moscow that Nicholas II had been executed.  Berzin reported directly to  Moscow that the rumors were false.

So, was there anyone else, who was part of the decision to executed Nicholas II and the others,  directly in contact with the Moscow?

What about Medvedev who knew Stalin from the old days?  

It seems Stalin had taken a direct course of being not only out of Moscow but as far far away as he could be from the Central Committe in Moscow.

Medvedev would use Stalin's old Browning to shot Nicholas II.  But there is not evidence that there was any communication between these two men.

Yurovsky knew Lenin.  p. 245 to 246 there is a conversation between Yurovsky and Lenin who gave Yurovsky his reasons why he was sending Yurovsky to Tobolsk and then he was to go on to Ekaterinburg where Nicholas II was to be sent.  

>>...You speak English and German.. so you can understand what they's talking about...And one more important thing: the jewels.  Figure out what and how many they are.  Everything must be returned to the working people.<<

Yurovsky was Lenin's choice.  He was not anyone else's choice.   Lenin sent Yurovsky because he knew he'd carry out his orders to the fullest.  Yurovsky was not the kind of executioner one would expect to be sent by Lenin, who had dozens of men who would fit the description of executioner, but this task needed a man with a soft touch and someone who was very loyal.

Even with all this Soviet attention towards Ekaterinburg,  I continue to think there were rescuers willing and able to plot a realistic escape for Nicholas II and all the others from the Ipatiev House.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #122 on: February 28, 2006, 06:56:07 PM »
Quote
Clever fellows those Moscow Soviets, who accomplished the task of getting everyone to believe what they wanted everyone to believe.  

And, to show how clever,  the Moscow Soviets even had the Ural Soviet's believing they were competely on their own in this decision due to the approaching Whites.

There was no need to send in troops to rescue Nicholas II and the others.  The trial had been a good idea but then it may have back fired and they couldn't take the chance.  So, with a few words and a nod in early July,  the Ural Soviets leaders went back to Siberia and they would  give the orders to execute Nicholas II and the others,  and so the Ural Soviets would  have the bloody hands, take the credit,  and the hands of the Moscow Soviets would  appear clean.

My thoughts on this matter are not what the majority of historians believe but it's not the first time I've stood among the minority in this world of ours.


AGRBear


Probable, yes.  Logical, no.   ;)
Hindsight is 20/20.  When the myopic haze of of the present is lifted by the march of time we see it clearly as the past.  Sociology, psychology, anthropology.  They are all means of understanding that which came before.  History cannot stand alone.

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #123 on: March 01, 2006, 09:45:04 AM »
I believe we can agree to disagree.

So,  let's get back to the possibilities of an escape.

AGRBear
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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #124 on: March 02, 2006, 05:45:51 PM »
For those who earlier waned to know more about Sokoviev and his link with the Bolsheviks:

Quote
Grabbed my Sokolov Report, did some quick translation. There is a whole section where he investigated Soloviev thoroughly. Turns out, folks, that Soloviev was arrested in Vladivostok in December 1919 and charged with being a Bolshevik agent. Both he and his wife Matrona (not Maria) Rasputina were convicted based on the overwhelming evidence produced at trial. Here's what Soloviev did:

They used the Rasputin name/connection with Vyroubova and Lili Dehn, and with their unwitting help, set up a network of monarchists in Petrograd and Moscow, headed by Nicholas Evgeneivich Markov, who still had money to help the Imperial Family. They went around telling them the grand tale that they had 300 loyal Russian soldiers in the Ekaterinburg region.  Tatiana Botkina later testified that this was "a crock", that there was not organization of any one at all under Soloviev in Ekaterinburg. Meanwhile, old Mr. S. set up residence in January 1918, exactly at the junction of the railway between Tiumen and Tobolsk. So, he sets himself up as the ONLY central contact point for all assistance and rescue efforts for the Imperial Family, and of course, all these people who are sent out from Petrograd/Moscow are forced by the railway to stop in Tiumen, and of course to see Mr. S. Mr. S selectively filters the people who are permitted to journey to Tobolsk and later Ekaterinburg. Those who he does permit to go are only given permission to go for one day ONLY. Anyone who does not give in to Soloviev's demands is conveniently denounced immediately by Mr. S. and delivered up to the local Bolsheviks for arrest. To Dehn's credit, once she went to Tiumen and met Soloviev in person, she returned "with little confidence in him.  His having left her with the impression of a young man who was audacious to excess and demonstrably avaricious in questions of money."  Soloviev is collecting all the money for the Imperial Family, and not a kopek is actually getting through. Anyone who comes out to investigate is told the "tale", and if they don't accept it, they too are conveniently denounced and handed over to the local Soviet for arrest.

Sokolov upon further background check found out that Soloviev had been involved with the Bolshevik movement from the very first days of the Revolution. Soloviev's own diary revealed that he only married Matrona Rasputin in order to take advantage of the name. Furthermore, Soloviev's diary revealed that fifteen days BEFORE the transfer of the Emperor from Tobolsk, Yakovlev told Soloviev of the exact date: April 12, 1918.

This, then, is the person who's statements are relied upon as "accurate".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2006, 03:55:13 PM »
A new question.

When the Bolshviks started refuse to allow parts of the IF group to live in the Ipatiev House and, also, when they desided to pull people out of the Ipatiev House,  does this tell us that they [Moscow Soviets, and/or the Ural Soviets were weakening the protection of those who had been loyal around the IF and already planning to execute Nicholas II and his family?

Quote

...[in part]...

Removal of Nagorny:
King and Wilson claim that Nagorny was removed from the Ipatiev House on May 14/27 for the ostensible reason that on the previous day he had “apparently got into an argument with the men” searching the children’s luggage from Tobolsk (p. 157). But this statement isn’t footnoted and in my opinion it’s yet another example of King and Wilson arriving at a conclusion based on little or no supporting evidence. If you check, the only citations in this paragraph of FOTR are to the diaries of Nicholas and Alexandra. But in fact neither Nicholas nor Alexandra states the reason that Nagorny and Sednev were taken away to the Regional Soviet for interrogation. Alexandra even writes, “don’t know why” (AF’s diary, May 14/27, 1918). Surely if Nagorny had gotten into a quarrel with the guards, either Alexandra or Nicholas would have mentioned it (for example, later that summer Alexandra would note that Yurovsky and Kharitonov had had an altercation, leaving Kharitonov very upset). It also begs the question, why was Sednev arrested at the same time as Nagorny? Did he also have a quarrel with the guards?

The traditional story about Nagorny’s removal, repeated in many books about the Romanovs, has him being arrested because he protested the theft of Alexei’s gold cross by one of the guards. King and Wilson utterly dismiss this story because it originated with Prince Lvov, whom they consider a totally unreliable witness. I have to agree with them here. For example, Lvov made up various stories about the murder of the IF, asserting that they had been killed in the cell next to his own. I think we can safely ignore his testimony about Nagorny. And once again, if Nagorny really did get arrested because he got angry with one of the guards, why was Sednev arrested at the same time? And why don’t either Nicholas or Alexandra mention this incident in their diaries? Nicholas complains about the guards stealing the IF’s belongings from the storage shed – wouldn’t he complain about a theft taking place in his own son’s room?

In my opinion the most logical explanation for Nagorny’s removal is the one King and Wilson give on p. 159: “In all likelihood, Nagorny and Sednev were removed from the Ipatiev House precisely because they represented a threat to the power of the Special Detachment. Both were tall, well-built young men capable of protecting the Romanovs if necessary; with their removal, the only men who remained in the Ipatiev House were the middle-aged Nicholas, Botkin, Trupp, and Kharitonov, and the two young boys Alexei and Leonid Sednev.” But if that really was the reason, then it would also tend to suggest that the Ural Regional Soviet was already planning to kill the Romanovs.




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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2006, 01:14:21 PM »
Quote
You could write that they go to England with their servants. They go and live at Osbourne as Alix has such happy memories of it and as the nation doesn't want Osbourne anyway.  

The first few years they live of the proceeds of the sale of the jewels (though they keep the best bits for themselves obviously) but they spend a lot on rescuing former friends and servants from the evil clutches of the bolsheviks!! (after spending months in prison Countess Hendrikova and Mlle Schneider's are rescued too and arrive in England to join the household). They also manage to regain custosy of items of THERE property including all the imperial eggs.

They of course have loads of balls and parties with the Tsar resplendent in his uniform and the Empress and her daughters literaly dripping in jewels. Guests would write that as they sailed across the waters to Osbourne all you could see was a blaze of light through the darkness which was actually the Empress and her daughters in there jewels.

Anyway after a few years and with with the cost of maintianing Osbourne etc they begin to have a cash flow problem. But not to worry all four of the Grand Duchesses marry extremely well and they are rich beyond belief. Also by this point they have discovered a cure for Hemophillia. Alexis has his own army, storms Russia, all the bolsheviks being the cowards they are do a runner and what do you know? Alexis is Tsar of all the Russians!!!

And they all live happily ever after.


Didn't anyone appreciate my story??  :-/ :'(
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Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2006, 01:38:47 PM »
Quote

Didn't anyone appreciate my story??  :-/ :'(

Of course! Would've been a miracle, though..

Offline Eddie_uk

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2006, 01:43:22 PM »
lol, thanks sweetie :-* Just don't want to think any of my posts are in vein  ;) ;D
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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2006, 07:48:59 AM »
 :oVery interesting topic indeed!!! I have a lot of military training and experience. So, in my opinion of rescue and escape being possible........ I would say logistically is a nightmare. Impossible well, no. After reading the numerous posts here I can appreciate the pros and cons of the opinions being expressed.

I know that in 1917 there were no special forces, etc. But, if planned right and if one had the daring it could be done. Very risky though. Secrecy and extensive training would also play a major role in the sucess of the mission. The time needed to train men for a mission like that is also taxing and almost impossible in that time frame and period because timing and execution would be a big factor in the outcome. You would need a lot of fresh reliable intel too. Without it well, then it IS impossible. I'm just trying to break it down a little here so that even a layman would appreciate it.

I also believe that there would be a high casualty rate also which might even extend to some or all of the IF themselves. I say that because of the number of people being rescued. Hmmm.... Like I said, it'd be one big nightmare. I hope this helps.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Jay »

Offline Ivan Komarov

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #130 on: May 14, 2006, 10:43:21 PM »
Quote
:oVery interesting topic indeed!!! I have a lot of military training and experience. So, in my opinion of rescue and escape being possible........ I would say logistically is a nightmare. Impossible well, no. After reading the numerous posts here I can appreciate the pros and cons of the opinions being expressed.

I know that in 1917 there were no special forces, etc. But, if planned right and if one had the daring it could be done. Very risky though. Secrecy and extensive training would also play a major role in the sucess of the mission. The time needed to train men for a mission like that is also taxing and almost impossible in that time frame and period because timing and execution would be a big factor in the outcome. You would need a lot of fresh reliable intel too. Without it well, then it IS impossible. I'm just trying to break it down a little here so that even a layman would appreciate it.

I also believe that there would be a high casualty rate also which might even extend to some or all of the IF themselves. I say that because of the number of people being rescued. Hmmm.... Like I said, it'd be one big nightmare. I hope this helps.
I agree partially, if not wholly, with you...

Along with my history obsession, I also greatly enjoying studying militaries, their paraphenalia, and respective wars and how they were fought (believe me, I've played the video games with the best of them too) and I must repeat Jay's statement of such an operation being a 'logistical nightmare'. Undeniably so.

However, if there were one or two of the soldiers who were directly involved with the imprisonment and apparent execution of the Imperial Family, the situation would have been no less risky, but perhaps easier to negotiate any final escape if need be.  For instance, even if the shooting actually occured, the running theory of someone 'falling off the truck' would be much more plausible.  The truck was theoretically unattended for a substantial time, according to most accounts, and if one of the Bolshevik soldiers had been unoccupied and unsupervised at the time, it would have been all to easy for him to slip into the woods (though the motive would be difficult to ascertain, with the exception of perhaps a romance with one of the GDs - Ivan Skhorokhodov and Marie Nikolaevna?).  Arguably, the woods were well guarded, but if the soldier went through his own sector...at that time, I do not believe that the well-known system of two guards, one supervising the other's actions at all times, was in place either.

Here's an important sidenote.  According to the former Office of Military Finances, Records and Historical Archives ([ch1054][ch1092][ch1080][ch1089] [ch1092][ch1080][ch1085][ch1072][ch1085][ch1089][ch1086][ch1074] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1080][ch1089][ch1082][ch1072], [ch1087][ch1086][ch1082][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1077][ch1081] [ch1080] [ch1080][ch1089][ch1090][ch1086][ch1088][ch1080][ch1095][ch1077][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080][ch1093] [ch1072][ch1088][ch1093][ch1080][ch1074][ch1086][ch1093][ch1088][ch1072][ch1085][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080][ch1097], it dissolved into multiple libraries after 1992 as an effort to de-totalitarianize the country through dispersion of documents) two soldiers were missing from the division assigned to the Kopatkij Forest during that time frame; albeit, as the Red Army at that time was still considered a partisan force, and the Soviet government was still consolidating power, these records are questionable, if not downright unbelieveable.  Names of the two soldiers were never released, or either never recorded, so they cannot be cross-checked with their duties or presence in Yekaterinburg at the time.

I hope that was relative and insightful.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by komarov »
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Offline ordino

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #131 on: May 15, 2006, 06:51:40 AM »
Quote
Quote
:oVery interesting topic indeed!!! I have a lot of military training and experience. So, in my opinion of rescue and escape being possible........ I would say logistically is a nightmare. Impossible well, no. After reading the numerous posts here I can appreciate the pros and cons of the opinions being expressed.

I know that in 1917 there were no special forces, etc. But, if planned right and if one had the daring it could be done. Very risky though. Secrecy and extensive training would also play a major role in the sucess of the mission. The time needed to train men for a mission like that is also taxing and almost impossible in that time frame and period because timing and execution would be a big factor in the outcome. You would need a lot of fresh reliable intel too. Without it well, then it IS impossible. I'm just trying to break it down a little here so that even a layman would appreciate it.

I also believe that there would be a high casualty rate also which might even extend to some or all of the IF themselves. I say that because of the number of people being rescued. Hmmm.... Like I said, it'd be one big nightmare. I hope this helps.
I agree partially, if not wholly, with you...

Along with my history obsession, I also greatly enjoying studying militaries, their paraphenalia, and respective wars and how they were fought (believe me, I've played the video games with the best of them too) and I must repeat Jay's statement of such an operation being a 'logistical nightmare'. Undeniably so.

However, if there were one or two of the soldiers who were directly involved with the imprisonment and apparent execution of the Imperial Family, the situation would have been no less risky, but perhaps easier to negotiate any final escape if need be.  For instance, even if the shooting actually occured, the running theory of someone 'falling off the truck' would be much more plausible.  The truck was theoretically unattended for a substantial time, according to most accounts, and if one of the Bolshevik soldiers had been unoccupied and unsupervised at the time, it would have been all to easy for him to slip into the woods (though the motive would be difficult to ascertain, with the exception of perhaps a romance with one of the GDs - Ivan Skhorokhodov and Marie Nikolaevna?).  Arguably, the woods were well guarded, but if the soldier went through his own sector...at that time, I do not believe that the well-known system of two guards, one supervising the other's actions at all times, was in place either.

Here's an important sidenote.  According to the former Office of Military Finances, Records and Historical Archives ([ch1054][ch1092][ch1080][ch1089] [ch1092][ch1080][ch1085][ch1072][ch1085][ch1089][ch1086][ch1074] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1080][ch1089][ch1082][ch1072], [ch1087][ch1086][ch1082][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1077][ch1081] [ch1080] [ch1080][ch1089][ch1090][ch1086][ch1088][ch1080][ch1095][ch1077][ch1089][ch1082][ch1080][ch1093] [ch1072][ch1088][ch1093][ch1080][ch1074][ch1086][ch1093][ch1088][ch1072][ch1085][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080][ch1097], it dissolved into multiple libraries after 1992 as an effort to de-totalitarianize the country through dispersion of documents) two soldiers were missing from the division assigned to the Kopatkij Forest during that time frame; albeit, as the Red Army at that time was still considered a partisan force, and the Soviet government was still consolidating power, these records are questionable, if not downright unbelieveable.  Names of the two soldiers were never released, or either never recorded, so they cannot be cross-checked with their duties or presence in Yekaterinburg at the time.

I hope that was relative and insightful.
A very interesting message Ivan Komarov, not only that two soldiers were missing from the division assigned to the Kopatkij Forest,but better the second one: the Red Army in 1918 was not a perfect and disciplined force.
Thanks. Ordino

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #132 on: May 15, 2006, 07:13:23 AM »
No names, no records...so what makes them actually exsist in the first place ?
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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #133 on: May 15, 2006, 06:56:46 PM »
Quote
:oVery interesting topic indeed!!! I have a lot of military training and experience. So, in my opinion of rescue and escape being possible........ I would say logistically is a nightmare. Impossible well, no. After reading the numerous posts here I can appreciate the pros and cons of the opinions being expressed.

I know that in 1917 there were no special forces, etc. But, if planned right and if one had the daring it could be done. Very risky though. Secrecy and extensive training would also play a major role in the sucess of the mission. The time needed to train men for a mission like that is also taxing and almost impossible in that time frame and period because timing and execution would be a big factor in the outcome. You would need a lot of fresh reliable intel too. Without it well, then it IS impossible. I'm just trying to break it down a little here so that even a layman would appreciate it.

I also believe that there would be a high casualty rate also which might even extend to some or all of the IF themselves. I say that because of the number of people being rescued. Hmmm.... Like I said, it'd be one big nightmare. I hope this helps.

Jay,

Since you are trained in rescue and escape,  could you place yourself back to the year 1918, and tell us what you would have done to arrange an escape from the Ipatiev House?   Let say you had two men working inside as  guards and have about five men, one of which is a pilot,  in Ekaterinburg.  Money is no object.  You have the guns you need.  And, there are no leaks to the Reds that you are in town.  Transportation can be horses, carriages, wagons and one airplane, which carries one passenger.....  And,  the seven of you are smart and professionals.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline ordino

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2006, 06:02:20 AM »
Quote
No names, no records...so what makes them actually exsist in the first place ?
Well, can you imagine Yurosky making a perfect list of the soldiers at Ipatiev House, with names, ay ges and dates and saying at the end, "oh by the way, just the night of 16th to 17th this man, and this mas ( of course with the names, patronimics and surnames), were missing.
I cannot imagine this and don´t forget the revolution, the war, the caos. So, it will be interesting if at least two soldiers were missing those days.
Thanks. Ordino