Author Topic: Realistically, was escape possible?  (Read 30777 times)

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Offline Ivan Komarov

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #135 on: May 16, 2006, 02:40:11 PM »
When I said 'for that period of time', I meant much more than just those nights; I don't remember exactly how many men were originally enlisted as part of the Red Army in the Ural Soviet at the time, but two disappeared sometime between May and August of 1918, without being accounted for as casualties - in fact, their absence is not accounted for at all.  It's entirely possible that the two soldiers left or were lost before or during the executions, as well as afterwards.
Just in case the fates are kind and you come back someday
I don't want to live without my little Anastasia
Anastasia, your disappearance is the thorn in my side
Anastasia, you know your absence is the thorn in my side

Offline Tania+

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2006, 03:09:32 PM »
[size=10]Very interesting indeed Ivan ! Which only goes to show that here also, body count was not really followed, was it ? Still today, your saying there has not been an understanding as to where these two went. But, how can soldiers be left, or lost before or during any execution. Were they that sovelnlay[sp?] in their addressing their duties, and or collective address to duties. All i can say is you bring up another very important focus.... ;) Many Thanks !!!

Tatiana+[/size]


Quote
When I said 'for that period of time', I meant much more than just those nights; I don't remember exactly how many men were originally enlisted as part of the Red Army in the Ural Soviet at the time, but two disappeared sometime between May and August of 1918, without being accounted for as casualties - in fact, their absence is not accounted for at all.  It's entirely possible that the two soldiers left or were lost before or during the executions, as well as afterwards.
TatianaA


Offline AGRBear

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #137 on: May 17, 2006, 05:48:18 PM »
Quote

...[in part]....
Here's an important sidenote.  According to the former Office of Military Finances, Records and Historical Archives ...., it dissolved into multiple libraries after 1992 as an effort to de-totalitarianize the country through dispersion of documents) two soldiers were missing from the division assigned to the Kopatkij Forest during that time frame; albeit, as the Red Army at that time was still considered a partisan force, and the Soviet government was still consolidating power, these records are questionable, if not downright unbelieveable.  Names of the two soldiers were never released, or either never recorded, so they cannot be cross-checked with their duties or presence in Yekaterinburg at the time.

....

I do not know what happen to my original post.  I don't think I said anything that would cause it to have been eliminated by FA.  Anyway,  let me post, again.

There are listings of all the guards who were part of the Ipatiev House before and after for several reasons.
(1) When guards went on duty they entered their name into the daily book which listed hours worked.
(2) Paymaster had a list so he knew who to pay and I believe that is what Ivan K. 's information is referring
(3) The list of the guards can be found in various books.  One being THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS in the back of their book.

It would be interesting to discover the names of the two guards who are mention but not by name in the fiancial report.

I wonder if one of them was the fellow who had failed to bury Alexei and one of the GD whom Yurovsky mentions briefly, but, like the financial report, mentions no name of this soldier.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Ivan Komarov

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #138 on: May 17, 2006, 08:49:53 PM »
1, a correction; the two men were not definitely attached to the group in the Kopatkij Forest, but rather in general in the Ural Soviet (they could still very well have been in the forest, though).

2, In seeing that none of the Ipatiev House squad were missing or otherwise absent after the night/early morning 17th and 18th July 1918, a lot of my concern would be with the unit patrolling the Kopatkij Wood at the time, which has come up in many arguments about 'someone managing to drag themselves into the woods'.  I forget exactly which division of the Ural Soviet Red Army was supposed to have been present during the events that night, so perhaps it is from this group that the two soldiers vanished.  While this dampens the possibility of an assisted escape, it does not eliminate it; because again, if one of the forest guards snuck one of the GDs and possibly Alexei through the sector that he (and possibly a partner) were to be patrolling...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by komarov »
Just in case the fates are kind and you come back someday
I don't want to live without my little Anastasia
Anastasia, your disappearance is the thorn in my side
Anastasia, you know your absence is the thorn in my side

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #139 on: May 18, 2006, 01:14:43 AM »
There was a mix of different groups which were involved taking the dead to the woods but had not reached the  Four Bothers Mine, a group who arrived with Ermakov in the woods, a group who took the dead to the mine, a group who placed the dead into the mine,  a group who pulled the dead out of the mine,  took the dead to the Pig's Meadow area....

As Ivan has said,  he doesn't know if the two missing men were a part of these groups, all he knows, at this time, is they ended up missing.

His remarks had reminded me of the "comrade" who had been left with two bodies mentioned my Yurovsky in his  testimony of 1920  which is found in THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS:
 
>>...Around 4:30 in the morning of the 19th, one of the vehicles got completely stuck.  Since we had not reached the mine, it was necessary to either bury or burn the corpes.  One comrade, whose last name the comm. has forgotten, promised to take the latter upon himself but left without carrying out his promise.
...<<

It appears that this unknown "comrade" was alone with the two missing.

AGRBear
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline ordino

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #140 on: May 18, 2006, 06:15:10 AM »
Quote
When I said 'for that period of time', I meant much more than just those nights; I don't remember exactly how many men were originally enlisted as part of the Red Army in the Ural Soviet at the time, but two disappeared sometime between May and August of 1918, without being accounted for as casualties - in fact, their absence is not accounted for at all.  It's entirely possible that the two soldiers left or were lost before or during the executions, as well as afterwards.
But it´s a very, very interesting information and it´s very nice to read your message Ivan Komarov, thank you very much for them.
Ordino.

Offline Ivan Komarov

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #141 on: May 18, 2006, 09:31:16 AM »
Wow, Bear, I hadn't remembered or remembered that I'd even known that...it seems we may have uncovered something interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by komarov »
Just in case the fates are kind and you come back someday
I don't want to live without my little Anastasia
Anastasia, your disappearance is the thorn in my side
Anastasia, you know your absence is the thorn in my side

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #142 on: May 24, 2006, 11:15:26 AM »
Yes, it is interesting.

Also, are you aware that in Yurovsky's unpublished memiors that he claimed to have burned "a single body" and not two?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Tania+

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #143 on: May 24, 2006, 11:54:50 AM »
Ivan,

When I read your post, I immediately posted my thoughts as well on this thread, thinking it was a highly unusual and interesting point. Thanks again for bringing it to light.

Bear is right, there were a mix of different soldiers coming and going on the night of the execution.
It would be nice to understand of all being accounted for, ie, what each did, and or accomplished of their given duties. But two soldiers missing, well, unaccunted for, is unusual don't you think ?

Tatiana+


Quote
Wow, Bear, I hadn't remembered or remembered that I'd even known that...it seems we may have uncovered something interesting.
TatianaA


Offline Ivan Komarov

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #144 on: June 08, 2006, 03:06:00 PM »
Sorry if I haven't kept this thread active, I've been away for a few days/weeks...I forgot how long.  I'm continuing to look for more material regarding the latest reported here, so I'll get back to everyone if I find anything.
Just in case the fates are kind and you come back someday
I don't want to live without my little Anastasia
Anastasia, your disappearance is the thorn in my side
Anastasia, you know your absence is the thorn in my side

Offline Bev

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #145 on: June 10, 2006, 09:31:26 PM »
This is a very nice site and I'm enjoying reading all the posts!

In my opinion, escape of the IF was possible on two occasions - once in Tsarkoe Selo and once in Tobolsk, and even then not all of the family could have escaped.

When they were in Tsarkoe Selo, as the govt. was falling apart, the empress had a window of opportunity to leave with the children or send the children away.  She was cautioned repeatedly to leave, but chose to stay.  Yes, the children were very ill, but as she was told, "the first to be carried out of a house on fire are the invalids."

The second opportunity, I believe, came in Tobolsk, when they were notified that the Emperor would be taken away, and she insisted that she go with him.  Up until that time, I don't believe that the decision had been made to shoot anyone but the Emperor.  If he had gone without her, she probably would have been arrested and imprisoned, but the children might have had a chance to be at the very least sent to the Crimea to their grandmother.  

Once the Emperor and the Empress (with GD Marie et.al) left for Ekaterinburg the fate of the entire family was sealed.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #146 on: June 21, 2006, 12:15:21 PM »
As long as Nicholas II and the others were alive, there was the possibility of escape and survival.

The Germans, who were ploting a rescue, on or about the 16th of July 1918, certainly didn't agree that escape was not possible.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Lordtranwell

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #147 on: June 25, 2006, 03:03:09 AM »
The question of whether escape was possible is an intriuging one.

I would point out that the British Special Intelligence Service was active in the area at the time and this should not be underestimated.  They had at that time at least four years experience of deceptive and clandestine tactics and this may sound assertive but I believe they were experts at it.

Have you ever wondered why so many mining experts descended on Ekaterinburgh at the time?  Have your evere contemplated the proximity of the British Consulate to the Ipatiev house?

Have you ever thought of the land fall on which the Ipatiev house was built?   And there is a small booklet,  quite fantastic in style, which describes an escape by tunnel.

So, was escape possible?    A great question.

Force of arms seems quite out of the question.   But what of brazen deception?  Remember the motto of the SAS : 'Who Dares Wins'.

Here's something to consider:  at that time there were a number of quite ruthless and extensively experienced  British   agents in that area e.g. Meinertzhagen, Digby-Jones et al.  These were people well versed in all the tactics necessary to infiltrate and subvert Red guards.    If an escape was attempted it must involve subversion and infiltration.  So, British agents dish out the roubles in order to get access to the imperial family.  The plan is to get to them and see what is possible given the exigences of the situation: if possible all go if not take what is available.

This is what I think may have happened on the second occasion which precipitated the murder of a number of people on July 17/17th.

I think there is good evidence to speculate on an earlier successful rescue which brought about the change of guard on July 4th and the arrest of Andyiev.  In this case there is evidence that one or maybe two got away.  The arrival of Yurovsky brought in a new way of working at the Ipatiev house but there was I think another attempt at subversion that went terribly wrong and resulted in some shootings at the Ipatiev house.  I think that on this second attempt at least one British agent, Digby-Jones, was shot by the Red guards.

Now a dose of reality - If I was put  in charge of the Ipatiev house I'm damn sure no one would escape and I am sure Yurovsky was much more capable than me.

All the best to all contributors - it's great to read your ideas.

Lordtranwell

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #148 on: June 25, 2006, 12:24:52 PM »
Quote
The question of whether escape was possible is an intriuging one.

I would point out that the British Special Intelligence Service was active in the area at the time and this should not be underestimated.  They had at that time at least four years experience of deceptive and clandestine tactics and this may sound assertive but I believe they were experts at it.

Have you ever wondered why so many mining experts descended on Ekaterinburgh at the time?  Have your evere contemplated the proximity of the British Consulate to the Ipatiev house?

Have you ever thought of the land fall on which the Ipatiev house was built?   And there is a small booklet,  quite fantastic in style, which describes an escape by tunnel.

So, was escape possible?    A great question.

Force of arms seems quite out of the question.   But what of brazen deception?  Remember the motto of the SAS : 'Who Dares Wins'.

Here's something to consider:  at that time there were a number of quite ruthless and extensively experienced  British   agents in that area e.g. Meinertzhagen, Digby-Jones et al.  These were people well versed in all the tactics necessary to infiltrate and subvert Red guards.    If an escape was attempted it must involve subversion and infiltration.  So, British agents dish out the roubles in order to get access to the imperial family.  The plan is to get to them and see what is possible given the exigences of the situation: if possible all go if not take what is available.

This is what I think may have happened on the second occasion which precipitated the murder of a number of people on July 17/17th.

I think there is good evidence to speculate on an earlier successful rescue which brought about the change of guard on July 4th and the arrest of Andyiev.  In this case there is evidence that one or maybe two got away.  The arrival of Yurovsky brought in a new way of working at the Ipatiev house but there was I think another attempt at subversion that went terribly wrong and resulted in some shootings at the Ipatiev house.  I think that on this second attempt at least one British agent, Digby-Jones, was shot by the Red guards.

Now a dose of reality - If I was put  in charge of the Ipatiev house I'm damn sure no one would escape and I am sure Yurovsky was much more capable than me.

All the best to all contributors - it's great to read your ideas.

Lordtranwell

Lordtranwell:
>>the British Special Intelligence Service was active in the area at the time and this should not be underestimated<<

Bear:
I agree.

Lordtranwell:
>>Have you ever wondered why so many mining experts descended on Ekaterinburgh at the time?  Have your evere contemplated the proximity of the British Consulate to the Ipatiev house?<<

Bear:
How far was the Consulate from the Ipatiev House?

Lordtranwell:
>>...small booklet,  quite fantastic in style, which describes an escape by tunnel<<

Bear:
FA has forbidden me to post anything on this subject.

Lordtranwell:
>>...I think another attempt at subversion that went terribly wrong and resulted in some shootings at the Ipatiev house.<<

Bear:
There is evidence that an upstair door was bayonetted and shattered as if someone had tried to enter a room.  This door was taken off it's hinges and taken downstairs and placed outside and found by the Whites.

Far as I know, there was no mention of the "door" event in any of the diaries of the Romanovs.

The old photos show all the doors  were hanging in place when taken before July of 1918.

This door may be a clue which may tell us something happen in the Ipatiev House which we do not know happened.  Maybe, Nicholas II and his family locked themselves in a room in hopes to delay Yurovsky and his men long enough for the rescuers to arrive.... Then, again, the door story may not have anything to do with the Romanovs.  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Realistically, was escape possible?
« Reply #149 on: June 25, 2006, 12:35:15 PM »
It was Phil who told us about the door.  I'm looking for that quote, now, and thought I'd repeated this post of Phil's:

Quote
I have a slight problem with the notion that "NO ONE WITH THE MEANS WAS ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN RESCUING THE ROMANOVS" .  Sorry but this just isn't the case.

A fairly recently released Foreign Office file at the National Archives refers to a British rescue plan in 1917.  Whether this is the same plan as put together by Oliver Locker-Lampson and his RNAS armoured car unit or is connected with the "Tsar's House" at Murmansk I don't know, but the British appear to have had the will and means.  There were British agents in and around Ekaterinberg at the time of the murder (Digby-Jones was one and there were others) though probably working more on Czech liaison than on rescuing the Family.

Whatever, you can't flat out state that no-one with the means was interested.

Phil Tomaselli
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152