Author Topic: One thing I find odd  (Read 86072 times)

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #375 on: November 04, 2006, 01:08:00 PM »
Learn a little something about what does and does not make something newsworthy.

The content of the telegram in question does not make it newsworthy.  The Palace does not need to explain anything about the wording of the telegram.

The Palace does have to explain why their telegram was addressed to "Alexei Nicolaievich" -- 55 years after his disappearance in Ekaterinburg.  That is what makes the telegram newsworthy.  Not its content.

Your argument is nothing more than a weak attempt to avoid this fact.

And might I presume to suggest, Mr. Kendrick, that your argument is a weak attempt to avoid the fact that "Alexei Nikolaevich" has always been a very common name in Russia. It's the equivalent in English of addressing someone as James, the son of Michael (I'm choosing these names because "James" and "Michael" are as common in English usage as "Alexei" and "Nikolai" are in Russian usage). In other words, there would be thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands of Russian men answering to this same name and patronymic. In other words, I would suggest that the Palace was simply being extraordinarily polite in assuming that this particular Alexei Nikolaevich was one of thousands tendering his best wishes to the Windsor dynasty. And no more than that.


Give it up.  There is only one "Alexei Nicolaievich, Sovereign Heir, Tsarevich, Grand Duke of Russia."



No, you're wrong, so sorry to point this out, but there are probably thousands of Alexei Nikolaevichs living and breathing in Russia today, none of them even remotely related to the last tsarevich of Russia. Just as there are no doubt hundreds, if not thousands, of Anastasia Nikolaevna Romanovas. Anastasia is a very common name in Russia, as is Nikolaevna a very common patronymic, as is Romanov a very common surname. All of which you should know very well as a member of your purported profession... But I have to say, Mr. Kendrick, you are demonstrating an astonishing lack of familiarity with Russian culture for someone who claims to be a professional journalist.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 01:14:44 PM by Elisabeth »
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #376 on: November 04, 2006, 01:28:07 PM »

The Palace does have to explain why their telegram was addressed to "Alexei Nicolaievich" -- 55 years after his disappearance in Ekaterinburg.  That is what makes the telegram newsworthy.  Not its content.


What's there for the Palace to explain?

According to your post of October 31, the telegram was addressed to:  "Alexei Nicolaievich, Czarevich, Grand Duke of Russia... Burnaby, British Columbia".

In that same post, you said "Princess Anne and Capt. Mark Phillips themselves [my emphasis]" sent the reply, which you said was "signed by Anne and Mark".

So . . . what's left for the Palace to explain?  Obviously Princess Anne was sending a telegram to a man she knew to be the son of Nicholas II.

There are no the other possiblities.  The telegram was not signed by an autopen or some other means of reproduction.  The telegram was not addressed simply by copying an address off an incoming telegram without any thought to the veracity of the title.  Princess Anne clearly took time between her wedding on the 14th and her departure for her honeymoon on the morning of the 15th to send Alexei a personal response -- even though it was no more than a generic one-line thank you.  Of course, you convincingly explained that brevity earlier by pointing out that telegrams are charged by the line.  (The Britannia was going to consume a lot of fuel on the honeymoon.  A princess has to cut her costs where she can.)

Clearly the address on that envelope signified the acknowledgement by the House of Windsor that the son of Nicholas II was alive and living in the Commonwealth.

Not.

Offline Annie

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #377 on: November 04, 2006, 01:38:24 PM »
It could also be entirely possible that whomever sent the telegrams back had no idea who the person was, or even bothered to ask. It was likely some secretary and not even a royal anyway.

In real life, people send out thank you's to wedding and graduation gifts all the time when they don't even know for sure who the person really is. For example, I recently attended a wedding of the daughter of a cousin I had been only minimally close to growing up, and the daughter had never seen me or knew who I was. At the wedding, she greeted me with 'hi thanks for coming' without mentioning my name or getting personal. When I got my thank you note, it was kind but rather generic, with my name in the greeting. When writing a large number of such notes, people often go through them from a name on a list and don't really even know for sure who they are, they just insert a new name- and sometimes mention the particular gift. I would imagine for a royal wedding the amount of guests was so large quite a few canned or generic messages were sent out by someone who had no knowledge of the sender other than a name on a piece of paper. I don't think it means anything in favor of the claimant at all.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #378 on: November 04, 2006, 03:03:08 PM »
When  I checked  this thread:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1196.0.html

it was not the one  in which we had a long list of  possible blood disorders that were/ are similar to hemophilia.  So,  there is another thread floating around and that's the one I can't find.

I repeat,  just because members of the same family have the same kind of blood disorder  does not mean everyone has the same blood disorder, Alexis may have suffered from something entirely different.

What difference does it make as to which blood disorder Alexis suffered?   I had hoped all of us are interested in keeping all the facts correct.

Kendrick is incorrect when saying Tammet is the only Alexis claimant who claimed to have a blood disorder. 

AGRBear quote from List of Claimants:
>>Alexei Claimant in Iraq
p. 193 File of the Tsar, Mangold and Summers
Aparently Cecil  Edmonds bumped into someone who claimed he was Alexei who was serving in northern Iraq in 1926.  The man did have haemophilia.  Edmonds referred the case to King George V but the king rejected the possibility.
No farther evidence given.
AGRBear
PS  Cecil Edmonds was CBE, a former political officer with the old Colonial Office.
PSS  Evidently the British Director of the CID questions this boy who didn't change his story.  He was tested and did have hemophilia. <<

AGRBear
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 03:26:54 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #379 on: November 04, 2006, 03:39:57 PM »

What difference does it make as to which blood disorder Alexis suffered?   I had hoped all of us are interested in keeping all the facts correct.


Except for one journalist in Vancouver who is trying to drum up suppport for the claim of Heino Tammet, no one is advancing a serious argument that Alexei did not have hemophilia.  His family, his doctors, his symptoms, and every serious historian unanimously agree that he did.

If one rogue claim driven by a personal agenda is a reason to try to revisit a widespread historical consensus, shouldn't the energy be devoted to claims of more serious consequence?

Here's one:  I don't think Franklin Roosevelt really had polio.  I think he was off his game at Yalta because he had been drugged by the Bolshies.  There are a lot of reasons a person can be in braces and a wheelchair.  There was no means of proving the presence of the polio virus when he was stricken, and the symptoms should not be viewed as persuasive.  Maybe he was trying to cover up a car accident he had while driving drunk.  An aspiring politician would be highly motivated to do so.

There.  Someone has asserted a claim that Roosevelt had some other ailment similar to polio but that wasn't really polio.  Let's all now begin the hunt for the truth.  These things must be chased to ground.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #380 on: November 04, 2006, 03:40:04 PM »
Mr. Kendrick:

Since you now claim that the address is the important element here, I have a suggestion. Do what I have done. Write a letter to Buckingham Palace and use the title Czarevitch Alexei Nicholaevitch as the name on the return address. See if you get a response. My own theory is that some Bert 'n Fred in the royal mailroom will look at each other and shrug, and send it out --- on the theory that they have another live one on their hands. Olga Alexandrovna used to say that she was constantly being attacked by Anastasias in public places, and this strikes me as the same kind of thing.

All kidding aside, this isn't history. But it really isn't journalism, either. If it were, would you not have verified this sort of thing with Buckingham Palace? In terms of your involvement with this case as a journalist, do you have an editor?

As for whether Alexei had hemophilia or not, I suggest that we take the diagnosis offered at the time to his parents at face value, since all of his symptoms seem to jibe with it. Alexei's symptoms, not Tammets. Your arguments go in reverse order. Tammet didn't have hemophilia, therefore Alexei didn't. Nuh-uh. Moreover, the diagnosis of hemophilia was consistent across Victoria's descendants, making it virtually certain that Alexei had it as well. He was being treated for it in 1912, not 1812, and the disease was well documented by then.

Did Tammet's purported family contain other blood diseases? Did you investigate his background to discover this? Did Mr. Tammet offer a reason why he broke 54 years of being in some kind of Romanov Witness Protection Program just to send Anne and Mark a telegram? Was he fixated upon royal weddings? Was he fixated upon Anne? (I know, but weirder things have happened --- she has a certain charm, swatting away attempted kidnapers and such).

It's a tease.







« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 03:48:52 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #381 on: November 04, 2006, 03:43:40 PM »
Not so fast, Tsarfan. What about my claim to be a Grand Duke? My insane proposal has precedence over yours.

Besides, everyone knows that it was actually Eleanor in drag who ruled the country by 1945. The real FDR was killed by Cubans and Mafioso in 1934, and she took over. That was the reason they were never photographed together. When the disguise was penetrated by Stalin's agents, they faked FDR's death at Warm Springs, and Eleanor released control to Harry S Truman . . . but not before she had drugged him into support for the United Nations.

Oh . . . and Eleanor Roosevelt was actually Grand Duchess Olga.

Okay, discuss.

This is a tease.
Or . . . is it?   :o
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 03:49:30 PM by Louis_Charles »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #382 on: November 04, 2006, 04:01:35 PM »
I believe Roosevelt's medical records can be found.

Alexis medical records can not be found.

Please,  someone,  tell us where we can find actual documents stating that Alexis did have hemophilia.

Was the word "hemophia" ever used in Tsarina Alexandra's daries or letters to her famly?

Did NicholasII ever use the word "hemophilia"  and connect it with his son, Alexis?

Did Queen Victoria use the word "hemophilia" in correspondence to family or anyone?

Someone mentioned "hemophilia" or else this subject would hever have become known to us?   

Was it one of the Romanov doctors who wrote about it to another doctor? 

Does anyone remember the newspaper article which talks about Aleix having hemophilia and the date?

AGRBear

« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 04:03:24 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Bev

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #383 on: November 04, 2006, 05:31:56 PM »
This is argument by inversion  - no one has made the claim that Alexei had hemophilia, the fact is that he had hemophilia.  The claim is that the fact is incorrect, and the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.  If you want to claim that he did not have hemophilia, then it is up to you to prove that he had no disorder or another disorder.

Medical records aren't necessary to support the fact that he had hemophilia.  The symptoms (as Eliz pointed out) are such that the likelihood that it was another disorder is impossible.  A diagnosis is both inclusive and exclusive and arrived at by inductive reasoning, not deductive reasoning. (Because diagnoses are arrrived at by repeated experience.)  It isn't necessary to eliminate all other diseases to make a diagnosis.  (And medicine is one of the few philosophies that are dependent on inductive reasoning - if you see something often enough, you'll recognize it when you see it.)  It wouldn't matter if the family called it Alexei's purple Joe Pye weed, or never mentioned it at all, it is still hemophilia.

(It's the old gem of an argument, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"  The chicken, because the chicken is a known entity, and the egg is not.)

Offline Belochka

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #384 on: November 04, 2006, 07:38:26 PM »

There is only one "Alexei Nicolaievich, Sovereign Heir, Tsarevich, Grand Duke of Russia."

Your pretender, the Estonian-Canadian may have selected the title "Alexei Nicolaievich, Sovereign Heir, Tsarevich, Grand Duke of Russia"

Alexei was:


Его Императорское Высочество Наследник Цесаревич и Великий Князь Алексей Николаевич

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Offline Belochka

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #385 on: November 04, 2006, 07:53:08 PM »

The fact that a telegram sent by the Palace is actually addressed to "Alexei Nicolaievich"... 55 years after his disappearance... is the key issue that the Palace still needs to explain -- not what the telegram says.

jk

It is you who prefers to dismiss how those palace responses are manufactured.  The "key" has turned but it is you who have failed to see what is in front of you.

As I have pointed out to you, Tammet's incorrect self designation has revealed his deception. Everything else becomes meaningless.

Margarita


But the world will not stop turning on a simple question of semantics.

jk

The correct usage is indeed critical to this case. Tammet got it wrong from the very beginning and that was his failing. Whatever you as a balanced journalist may choose to write, you have failed to understand the correct Russian terminology.

No matter how you prefer to twist your web of intrigue, you are the only one caught in that web.

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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #386 on: November 04, 2006, 07:56:25 PM »
The average age at death for hemophilia sufferers is as follows:

Before WWII (no treatment available) - 11 years
WWII - 1968 (when whole blood or plasma transfusions became available) - 20 years
1968 - 1972 (when cryoprecipitate plasma became available) - < 40 years
1972 - 1992 (when plasma-derived factor became available) - 64 years
1992 onward (when recombinant DNA made mass production of clotting factors feasible) - normal life span.

The average age at death for Victoria's known hemophiliac descendents was 22.  (Remember, these were the most coddled people with the best medical care in Europe.)  There were several other descendents who died very young before the disease had been diagnosed.  If any of them had hemophilia, the average age of death would drop significantly.

With the exception of Waldemar of Germany who died at age 57, none of her hemophiliac descendents lived beyond his early 30's.

Even had there been no firing squad, Alexei -- already crippled and in critically frail health by mid-1918 -- had virtually no chance of sticking around to send telegrams from Canada in the 1970's.  Not only would he have had to escape the firing squad, to recover his health, and to have his deformed joints miraculously heal . . . he would have had to be the longest-lived of all Victoria's hemophiliac progeny by over a decade.

Even with an undescended testicle, this hurdle is too high for Heino to clear.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #387 on: November 04, 2006, 07:59:33 PM »
He lived . . . for Anne.
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #388 on: November 04, 2006, 08:03:16 PM »
When  I checked  this thread:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1196.0.html

it was not the one  in which we had a long list of  possible blood disorders that were/ are similar to hemophilia.  So,  there is another thread floating around and that's the one I can't find.



In it, the first post says:

"Would like to refer all members to an excellent article in The American Journal of Hematology 77:92-102 (2004) by John M. L. Kendrick called Historical Perspective.  Russia's Imperial Blood:  Was Rasputin Not the Healer of Legend?"

Is this the same J Kendrick that is in this current thread?

It lists some possibilities:

Christmas' Disease
hemolytic anemia
Hemiparesis
Thrombocytopenia

There was also this thread:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,2458.270.html

Mr J Kendrick comes up there as well.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 08:34:17 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #389 on: November 04, 2006, 08:08:26 PM »
I believe it is. ::cues ominous background music::
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
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