Author Topic: One thing I find odd  (Read 90401 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #390 on: November 04, 2006, 08:43:39 PM »
The average age at death for hemophilia sufferers is as follows:

Before WWII (no treatment available) - 11 years
WWII - 1968 (when whole blood or plasma transfusions became available) - 20 years
1968 - 1972 (when cryoprecipitate plasma became available) - < 40 years
1972 - 1992 (when plasma-derived factor became available) - 64 years
1992 onward (when recombinant DNA made mass production of clotting factors feasible) - normal life span.

It's a sad thing to mention, but with the AIDS virus in blood and blood products in the 1980's before testing was done, didn't many hemophiliacs die, (like Ryan White) and wouldn't that cut the life expectancy stats? :(

Offline Belochka

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #391 on: November 04, 2006, 09:01:25 PM »

(It's the old gem of an argument, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"  The chicken, because the chicken is a known entity, and the egg is not.)

 ???


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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #392 on: November 04, 2006, 10:09:24 PM »

It lists some possibilities:

Christmas' Disease
hemolytic anemia
Hemiparesis
Thrombocytopenia


Chistmas' Disease is the archaic name for Type B (IX Factor Deficiency) hemophilia.  It is not a separate disease.

There's a reason J. Kendrick's name comes up repeatedly in these various sources.  He's about the only one seriously pushing the notion that Alexei did not have hemophilia.  And he's a journalist, not a medical professional.

Offline Belochka

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #393 on: November 04, 2006, 10:21:43 PM »

It lists some possibilities:

Christmas' Disease
hemolytic anemia
Hemiparesis
Thrombocytopenia


Chistmas' Disease is the archaic name for Type B (IX Factor Deficiency) hemophilia.  It is not a separate disease.

There's a reason J. Kendrick's name comes up repeatedly in these various sources.  He's about the only one seriously pushing the notion that Alexei did not have hemophilia.  And he's a journalist, not a medical professional.

As a medical professional this is one reason why I find his "explanations" so amusing.

As a person of Russian ethnicity I find his presumptions highly offensive and disrespectful to the memory of the late Tsesarevich.

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #394 on: November 05, 2006, 09:11:07 AM »
...in part....

Alexis medical records can not be found.

Please,  someone,  tell us where we can find actual documents stating that Alexis did have hemophilia.

Was the word "hemophilia" ever used in Tsarina Alexandra's daries or letters to her famly?

Did NicholasII ever use the word "hemophilia"  and connect it with his son, Alexis?

Did Queen Victoria use the word "hemophilia" in correspondence to family or anyone?

Someone mentioned "hemophilia" or else this subject would hever have become known to us?   

Was it one of the Romanov doctors who wrote about it to another doctor? 

Does anyone remember the newspaper article which talks about Aleix having hemophilia and the date?

AGRBear



Someone must have an answer to atleast one of my questions.

At this time, most of us believe Alexis had hemophilia so who told the public for the first time?   He/ she/ they must have been believed or we wouldn't be having this conversation, now.  I do hope we're not victims of rumors that have been repeated so many times they are, now, believed as being true.

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #395 on: November 05, 2006, 09:17:57 AM »
When  I checked  this thread:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1196.0.html

it was not the one  in which we had a long list of  possible blood disorders that were/ are similar to hemophilia.  So,  there is another thread floating around and that's the one I can't find.



In it, the first post says:

"Would like to refer all members to an excellent article in The American Journal of Hematology 77:92-102 (2004) by John M. L. Kendrick called Historical Perspective.  Russia's Imperial Blood:  Was Rasputin Not the Healer of Legend?"

Is this the same J Kendrick that is in this current thread?

It lists some possibilities:

Christmas' Disease
hemolytic anemia
Hemiparesis
Thrombocytopenia

There was also this thread:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,2458.270.html

Mr J Kendrick comes up there as well.

Thanks grandduchessella.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #396 on: November 05, 2006, 09:24:52 AM »

As far as I know the disease was never mentioned in the family.
Queen Victoria used to say : "This disease does not exist in our family".

But in the letters Princess Alice of Hesse wrote to her mother she mentiones the suffering of her little Frittie - his bleedings and behaviour during these days...
It seems that it was a secret which everybody knew but nobody talked about it.
I read that Nikolaus II said the word "hemophilia" only once - when he was informed by the doctors after Alexej's first bleeding in 1904. Also Ernst Ludwig left no single word about the illness - neither in addition to his own brother, nor in Alexej's. He wrote " soon it became clear that the boy was ill.." But THE WORD never appears.

Who were the doctors invovled?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #397 on: November 05, 2006, 09:56:36 AM »
Dr. Dervenki was Gillard's source according to the following post by lexi4:

here are some references I found.
 
"I had a long talk with Dr. Derevenki. He told me that the Heir was prey to haemophilia, a hereditary disease which in  certain families is transmitted from generation to generation by the women to their male chilrdern. Only males are affected. He told me that the slightest wound might cause the boy's death, for the blood of a bleeder had not the power of coagulating like that of a normal individual. Futher, the tissue of the arteries and veins is so frail that ane blow or shock may rupture the blood-vessel and bring on a fatial haemmorrhage."
Gillard: "Thirteen years at the Russian Court." pp. 37 & 38.
 
 
"The Czarevitch was in the schoolroom standing on a chair, when he slipped, and in falling hit his right knee against the corner of some piece of furniture. The next day he could not walk. On the day after the subcutaneous haemmorage had progressed, and the swelling which had formed below the knee rapidly spread down the elg. The skin, which wa greatly distended, had hardened under the force of the extravasated blood, which pressed on the nerves of the leg and thus caused shooting pains, which grew worse every hour.
".....Dr. Derevenko was anxious, as the haemorrhage had not been stopped and his temperature was rising. The inflammation had spread further and the pain was even worse than the day before." Golliard page 43.
 
 
"....As we were going on board the Czarevitch jumped at the wrong moment, and hs ankle caught the bottom of the ladder leading to the deck. At first I though this accident would have no ill effects, but towards the evening the boy began to be in pain and his suffering rapidly increased. Everything pointed to a serious crisis. Gilliard p. 97.
 
I'm sure those aren't all of Gilliard's references, but are some of the highlights. He does describe some syptoms. Will post more as I find more.

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #398 on: November 05, 2006, 10:06:06 AM »
Found this and thought it  interesting, too.


Quote

NY Times Oct 23, 1912:
"The Czarowitch Alexis is lying rather seriously ill at the imperial hunting lodge of Spala, Russian Poland as the result of an accident on Oct. 15".

October 15 new style is October 2 old style... the date of Alexei's carriage ride.  Occurring October 15 N/S and reported in New York on October 23 N/S... a delay of eight days.

NY Times Oct 25, 1912:
"His Imperial Highness is now suffering from peritonitis.  It is impossible to ascertain the real cause of his illness."

When I ran across a whole series of articles on the crisis at Spala a few years ago while looking up sources on Alexei Nikolaevich, I did realize that Spala was located in an isolated area in Poland, and that at first the usual hesitation to have much about their son revealed would have been typical of the Imperial parents.  When the news filtered out of this rustic royal vacation retreat, a lot of rumors as to the cause of the boy's apparent injuries flew.  He had been said to have been shot and wounded on the Standart, to have been maimed by an anarchist's bombs, to have jumped off a high cupboard, and to have fallen off a horse.  There was not anything about the boy's illness flying about in the press in the wake of the Spala incident until the effort to deny that the boy had hemophilia was started by that official court bulletin composed by Count Fredericks.

Quote
October 25 new style is October 12 old style, and here the NY Times is reporting peritonitis when we now know that Alexei was already two days into his recovery after the fever had broken on October 10 O/S.. October 23rd N/S ... showing us again how much of a delay there was between the date of the actual events and the transmission of the story to New York
 
NY Times Oct. 26, 1912:
"The secrecy with respect to the injuries from which the Crown Prince is suffering has bred a crop of sensational rumors."

.. and it still is a sensational rumour to this very day.

As the articles written in the New York Times and in the London Times show, the wildest rumors were NOT about Alexei's illness, but about the cause of the incident.


Quote
NY Times Nov 9, 1912:
"The medical publication Hospital commenting on the recent pronouncement of the Czar's physicians that the Czarevich has hemophilia says the malady was frequently observed by scientists among European Royal families in the early and middle ages"

We've all seen the "recent pronouncement of the Czar's physicians" that the New York Times was referring to in its report of Nov 9, 1912.  It's the very same pronouncement that was issued by the Minister of the Imperial Court Baron Fredericks just six days before that New York Times report... on October 21 of 1912 O/S.. November 3 N/S... that carries the names of the four doctors Raukhfus, Federov, Botkin, and Ostrogorsky...

...and we all know that the "pronouncement of the Czar's physicians" most definitely does *NOT* use the word "haemophilia".  However, it does use the words "significant anemia" which is not the same thing.  (For our readers who have a hardback copy of "A Lifelong Passion" handy, the "pronouncement" that the New York Times was reporting can be found in the chapter on the year 1912 on pages 359 and 360.)

...

continued next post
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #399 on: November 05, 2006, 10:07:42 AM »
(continued from post above)

Quote

.....

Put yourself in the shoes of the Marshal of the Russian Court at this time.  The young Tsarevich had elicited the sympathy of the entire nation and there had apparently been 'a pronouncement of the Czar's physicians' that the boy had hemophilia.  The state secret had been leaked!  How to deny this and quell this news?  He had to write a bulletin in order to convince the Russian people that the boy would be all right, and had to hedge around the child's illness.  That 'significant anemia' he mentions?  He explained that it resulted from an 'abdominal haemorrhage....' that,  'as can be seen from  the specialist literature....' took 'a very specific and extremely severe clinical form.'

That form according to the fragment of Alexei's medical record that actually did come from his doctors, was that of a haematoma retroperitonale -- that manifested itself in bleeding into the hip joint, inflammation of the OUTER peritoneum, flexing of the knee joint and the high fever due to the 'absorption of excess blood...' and 'the reactive inflammatory process'.

Quote
I could go to great length to explain to how the fledgling News Wire Services operated in the early days of the past century, many long decades before the advent of satellites and the internet... tell you in detail how news stories are edited in bunches as they move from one major news bureau to the next and are sent to the customer newspapers at regularly scheduled intervals every day.  I could also explain how newspaper stories are written and edited to attract the readers' attention while at the same time maintaining brevity for reasons of limited space on the page...

In 1912?  Maybe the delay can be explained because of the remote location, the reluctance of Nicholas and Alexandra to reveal too much until Alexei Nikolaevich's condition became too grave not to say something, and the necessity to translate from the Russian or the German.



Quote
... but you'll doubtless go to great efforts to try shooting that down too... so I won't bother.

JK

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #400 on: November 05, 2006, 10:32:55 AM »
More descriptions of bleeding by Alexis:

Bear,
I found a couple of other passages in Gillard's book I thought you might like to read.

Autumn, 1913
"One morning I found the mother at her son's bedside. He had had a very bad night. Dr. Derevenko was anxious, as the haemorrhage had not been stopped and his temperature was rising. The inflammation had spread further and the pain was even worse than the day before. The Czarevitch lay in bed groaning piteously. His head rested on his mother's arm and his small, deathly white face was unrecogfnisable. At times, the groans ceased and he murmured one word "Mummy!" in which he expressed all his suffering and distress. His mother kissed him on the hair, forehead and eyes as if the touch of her lips could have relieved his pain and restored some of the life which was leaving him. Think of the tortures of that mother, an importent witness of her son's martydom in those hours of mortal anguish - a mother who knoew that she herself was the cause of his sufferings, that she had transmitted to him the terrible disease against which human science was powerless!A Now I understand the secret tragedy of her life! How easy it was to reconstruct the stages of that long Calvary." p. 43


April 12, 1917 "Alexis Nicolaevitch confined to bed, as since yesterday he has had a violent pain in the groin caused by a strain. He has been so well this winter. It is to be hoped it is nothing serious." P.258


April 15, 1917 "Alexis Nicolaevitch in great pain yesterday and today. It is one of his severe attacks of haemophilia."
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #401 on: November 05, 2006, 10:42:55 AM »
Bear, this is starting to sound like an awfully familiar reprise of your act on other threads:

"I don't believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia, mind you . . . but let's all revisit every single assertion ever made by anyone to uncover error and conspiracy in reports of the massacre."

Now it's:

"I don't believe Heino was Alexei, mind you . . . but let's revisit every single assertion ever made by anyone to uncover error and conspiracy in reports of Alexei's illness."

Are we about to be regaled with pages and pages of repetitive quotes from other posts?  Is there going to be mystery and dark motive read into every report of Alexei's condition?  Is there going to be error or misunderstanding laid at the door of every medical diagnosis from the turn of the 20th century?  Are the vagaries of getting a story to press in 1912 going to be the subject of endless analysis in search of lies or typos?

Is there any settled judgment of history in which you do not see vast error or conspiracy?  Are you really that bored?

Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #402 on: November 05, 2006, 11:05:09 AM »
More descriptions of bleeding by Alexis:

Bear,
I found a couple of other passages in Gillard's book I thought you might like to read.

Autumn, 1913
"One morning I found the mother at her son's bedside. He had had a very bad night. Dr. Derevenko was anxious, as the haemorrhage had not been stopped and his temperature was rising.


Since some of you have insisted on opening this hornet's nest yet again..

The fever and rising temperature are NOT a symptom of the bleeding and/or haemorrhage that may be caused by the clotting factor deficiency of hemophilia.

The fever and rising temperature are a symptom of the bleeding and/or haemorrhage that may be caused by the platelet dysfunction that will be found in hemolytic or aplastic anemias.

and... Yes. there are other blood diseases in this category that can be aquired by X-linked inheritance.

Haemophilia is NOT the only haemorrhagic blood disorder on the planet, folks.

... and now we wait for Belochka's inevitable response...

Deja vu... anyone?

 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 11:08:24 AM by J_Kendrick »

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #403 on: November 05, 2006, 12:11:21 PM »
Let's stay on topic. I only mentioned the illnesses listed in the post as a response to a question and posted the link so that people could go over there if they wanted to continue that particular avenue of discussion. 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 12:13:32 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline Annie

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #404 on: November 05, 2006, 12:34:10 PM »
Bear, this is starting to sound like an awfully familiar reprise of your act on other threads:

"I don't believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia, mind you . . . but let's all revisit every single assertion ever made by anyone to uncover error and conspiracy in reports of the massacre."

Now it's:

"I don't believe Heino was Alexei, mind you . . . but let's revisit every single assertion ever made by anyone to uncover error and conspiracy in reports of Alexei's illness."

Are we about to be regaled with pages and pages of repetitive quotes from other posts?  Is there going to be mystery and dark motive read into every report of Alexei's condition?  Is there going to be error or misunderstanding laid at the door of every medical diagnosis from the turn of the 20th century?  Are the vagaries of getting a story to press in 1912 going to be the subject of endless analysis in search of lies or typos?

Is there any settled judgment of history in which you do not see vast error or conspiracy?  Are you really that bored?



Sigh, thank you for expressing so eloquently what many of us have felt for some time now.


and on the diseases, I really think the family knew what disease he had, after all it ran in the family, and was referred to as 'the English disease' by European society. Some of the Spanish princes also suffered from the disease, through their mother, Ena, daughter of Princess Beatrice, youngest child of Queen Victoria. So it makes sense to me that if all those other boys in the same family got hemophilia thorugh the female line from Victoria, and Alexei was of that gene pool too, and his disease was the same, if it walks like a duck, why think anything else? Only because of a claimant?