Author Topic: One thing I find odd  (Read 84885 times)

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Offline J_Kendrick

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #420 on: November 05, 2006, 04:37:19 PM »


Oh please, Rob.

Is that one NY Times article really the only piece of evidence you have to support your position?

It was Mark Twain who said it best: "If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed."

Offline lexi4

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #421 on: November 05, 2006, 05:35:18 PM »
I have to say, it is difficult for me to read the print, but there is no attribution.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #422 on: November 05, 2006, 05:44:12 PM »


Oh please, Rob.

Is that one NY Times article really the only piece of evidence you have to support your position?

It was Mark Twain who said it best: "If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed."

I'm sorry, I'm dying here. At least he posted the thing --- you seem to base your entire case upon a still-unseen telegram. I would match the New York Times against the Burnaby postal service any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I mean, come on.
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Offline Janet_W.

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #423 on: November 05, 2006, 05:47:22 PM »
"What drives this?"

Here's another reason, Louis_Charles:

Because many of us find it far more fascinating to be someone other than ourselves, or to be associated with someone who has--or has had--a seemingly elevated life in comparison to ours.

I remember some time ago when a veteran Hollywood actress and a famous pop singer BOTH claimed to be the reincarnation of a famous Egyptian queen.

As more than one wag pointed out at the time, Who ever claims to be a reincarnated UNKNOWN person?

Even the fact that we are on this website indicates that most (if not all) of us find the last Romanovs 19th century interesting enough to include in our schedule today.

Then there's Halloween. When we were children, many of us enjoyed dressing up as our favorite fantasy figures--a cowboy, an astronaut, a ballerina, etc. These days adults enjoy it, too. As a for instance, it would be interesting to know how many grownups dressed up as pirates (i.e., Jack Sparrow & Associates) this past week!

People who identify themselves as long lost historical personages take all this a considerable step--make that leap--forward. And after awhile, for so many, it begins to have an aura of authenticity.

Rememer the little engine who kept telling himself, "I think I can I think I can"? That was a positive example of self talk. But sometimes it can go in delusional directions, or even worse. There's a famous former athlete who so many people kept saying couldn't POSSIBLY have murdered his wife because he was such a great, GREAT guy. And after awhile, I think he at least half believed it himself!

Offline Annie

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #424 on: November 05, 2006, 06:13:13 PM »
I can read the article, but what year was it? Nov. 9, -----?  If the NY Times knew it before WWI, why not the  Russian people?

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #425 on: November 05, 2006, 06:13:58 PM »

 But any disorder of the blood clotting mechanism is properly called "hemophilia".


That statement could not be more wrong if it tried !!

Haemophilia is a very specific type of blood disorder.  It is only one of as many as 150 known blood disorders that all have what is called a "haemorrhagic diathesis'.


In fact, Mr. Kendrick, there is not single agreed upon definition of hemophilia.  And it certainly is not a "very specific" type of "only one" blood disorder, as you assert.  Here are just a few definitions (the boldfacing will be mine):

From the National Cancer Institute's registry of diseases:

"Hemophilia:  a group of hereditary disorders in which affected individuals fail to make enough of a certain protein needed to form blood clots."

From the MayoClinic.com website:

"Hemophilia is a disorder of your blood-clotting system . . . .  There are several types of hemophilia."

From the Hemophiliagalaxy.com wesbite:

"Hemophilia is a rare genetic blood clotting disorder that primarily affects males . . . .  Two of the most common forms of hemophilia are A and B."

From the MedicineNet.com website:

"Hemophilia:  A group of inherited bleeding disorders in which the ability of the blood to clot is impaired."



Also, some authorities list von Willebrand's Disease as a separate blood disorder, and other authorities list it as one of the types of hemophilia.  And you list Christmas Disease as separate from hemophilia, when most authorities list it as a form of hemophilia.

In short, the term "hemophilia" is nowhere near as specific as you claim, even within the medical community.  The term has long been used, both inside and outside the medical community, to refer to an entire class of blood clotting disorders.

So let's cut to the chase here, Mr. Kendrick . . .

Are you saying the tsesarevich Alexei did not have a disorder (regardless of its name) that caused uncontrolled bleeding for prolong periods after he was injured?  And did or did not Heino Tammet have a disorder (regardless of its name) that had those symptoms?


Offline Tsarfan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #426 on: November 05, 2006, 06:23:00 PM »
I can read the article, but what year was it? Nov. 9, -----?  If the NY Times knew it before WWI, why not the  Russian people?

It was 1912.

We had a lengthy discussion on a long-ago thread about this.  It is a virtual certainty that at least the elite classes in Russia as well as the international diplomatic corps knew of Alexei's illness.  This whole thing about no one's understanding why Alexandra was so dependent on Rasputin is just bunk.  Russia's elite knew why she turned to Rasputin.  Other than a few bored occultists among the aristocracy, they just thought she was deluded in doing so.

Now, back to the questions posed to Mr. Kendrick . . .

Offline lexi4

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #427 on: November 05, 2006, 06:26:30 PM »
I can read the article, but what year was it? Nov. 9, -----?  If the NY Times knew it before WWI, why not the  Russian people?

It was 1912.

We had a lengthy discussion on a long-ago thread about this.  It is a virtual certainty that at least the elite classes in Russia as well as the international diplomatic corps knew of Alexei's illness.  This whole thing about no one's understanding why Alexandra was so dependent on Rasputin is just bunk.  Russia's elite knew why she turned to Rasputin.  Other than a few bored occultists among the aristocracy, they just thought she was deluded in doing so.

Now, back to the questions posed to Mr. Kendrick . . .

Tsarfan,
Can you or anyone else cite for me (with sources please) references to prolonged periods of bleeding? Are the examples where they say (for example) Alexei bled for xx hours or days?
I am aware of the pain and the swelling etc. But have yet found any entry in either Nicholas or Alex's diairies that discuss extended periods of bleeding, which may be an over sight on my part. If not, you think they would mention it.
Thank you,
Lexi
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #428 on: November 05, 2006, 06:33:04 PM »
Is this request for real?  Have you never heard of Spala?

You know, even in a criminal court case, there is a concept called "judicial notice".  What it means is that some things are so well known that the court will accept a reference to them without the litigants having to adduce evidence to prove them.  Without such a concept, every court docket would end up hopelessly clogged.

If this is an attempt to halt the challenge to Mr. Kendrick's hypothesis about Heino Tammet with sophistry, try it on someone else.

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #429 on: November 05, 2006, 06:35:34 PM »
two answers here:
1. I personally find it beyond amusing that Mr. Kendrick who is not a medical expert but rather, self admitted, a JOURNALIST, finds that his own profession is highly unreliable as a source. res ipsa loquitor Mr. Kendrick.

2: Spiridovitch, "Les Dernieres Annees..." Vol 2. ch. 12 "The Year 1912" translation by Rob Moshein, copyright.

"However, at Byelovyezhe, Derevenko was not able to prevent harm to the Tsarevtich.  One day, while he was taking his bath, the boy began to engage in all kinds of mischief.  It was a large porcelain bathtub, sunk into the floor and which one got into by several steps on each side and the bathtub had a fairly sharp edge all along its top.  The Tsarevtich had climbed onto the edge of the bathtub wanting to show Derevenko how the sailors on the Standardt would jump off the side of the yacht into the sea to go swimming.  He jumped and fell onto the side of the bathtub.  It hurt him, but without doubt the pain was not very great because he did not say anything afterward.  However, only a few minutes later, he lost conscience and they carried his nearly inanimate body to his bed.
   This accident in a healthy boy would not have had any unfortunate results, but it was for him, who suffered from hemophilia, the start of many severe complications that could never be totally healed.  He was bleeding severely internally.
   As always, the illness was assiduously hidden to the entourage.  They did not feel it necessary to call in a specialist doctor.  They put him totally under the care of the family doctor, Botkin.  It was the Empress herself who directed his treatment.  They cancelled the concerts which the Cavalry Regimental band, whose squadron formed the military guard of the Palace, would give during lunch and dinner.  The Tsarevtich was very upset at that, begged them to resume the concerts, but his request was in vain.
   When he became better, a Cossack from the escort was ordered to carry him around in his arms.  The child suffered greatly and everyone felt his illness.
   So it was under these conditions which we left Byelovyezhe for Spala on September 16th
...
However a new misfortune soon arrived.  Immediately after some bumps that he took while on a promenade in a caleche with the Empress, his health worsened.  The internal bleeding was even worse, and the swelling in his groin increased in size so much so that the child was confined to his bed.  He suffered incredibly. His cries and moans echoed often throughout the Palace, and his fever steadily grew.  Botkin never left him for a moment, but did not know what he could do to bring him relief. His pain grew so bad that the sick child would not permit the swelling to be touched.  He slept on his side, leg folded, pale, thin and never stopped moaning.
   They called the surgeon Serge Petrovitch Fyedorov from Petersburg, and the old Rauchfuss.  They arrived on October 4th, the night before Alexis Nicholaiovitch's Name's day. The illness got worse.  October 6th, his temperature rose to over 39 degrees (102 F.) and would not go down.  After a consultation, the doctors declared that that the situation was desperate.  Fyedorov said that he had decided not to open the swelling, given that they would be operating on the inheritor of the throne, and the operation would bring on fatal bleeding.  Only a miracle could save the child's life, he said.  And when they asked him what that miracle might be, he responded by shrugging his shoulders and said that the swelling might spontaneously be reabsorbed, but that the chance of that actually happening was only less than one in a hundred.
   After this diagnosis, the Minister of the Court was permitted to publish bulletins on the health of the Tsarevitch.  The first bulletin was dated October 8th.  They began to hold services in Spala to pray for a cure for the Tsarevitch.  In the Palace they would hear of no other help from the doctors, and only believed in God.  They gave the last rites to the child.  The catastrophe was expected from one day to the next.  The suffering child was plainly aware that his death was near.
   "Mama, don't forget to put a little monument on my tomb when I'm dead" he whispered one day into his mother's ear, who crazy with suffering, would not leave his side for an instant. (Sabline told me this later, who had been told it from the Empress herself.)
   It seemed that all was over.  The crisis approached.  And it was at this critical moment that Their Majesties received a telegram from Rasputin which read:
   "The illness will not be dangerous. Do not let the doctors make him tired."
   In a second telegram, the "staryets" said that he had prayed, that God had heard his prayers and had granted them.
   And then an incredible thing happened: the Tsarevitch began to get better and to go into recovery.
   His mother, in all her happiness, saw only one thing: his health had come back from her "friend", and it had been his prayers that had saved the life of her child.
   From that moment on, the Empress's faith in Rasputin was unshakeable and there was no force in the world that would ever alienate the "staryets" from the friendship of the Imperial Family.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 06:37:23 PM by Forum Admin »

Offline lexi4

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #430 on: November 05, 2006, 06:49:49 PM »
Is this request for real?  Have you never heard of Spala?

You know, even in a criminal court case, there is a concept called "judicial notice".  What it means is that some things are so well known that the court will accept a reference to them without the litigants having to adduce evidence to prove them.  Without such a concept, every court docket would end up hopelessly clogged.

If this is an attempt to halt the challenge to Mr. Kendrick's hypothesis about Heino Tammet with sophistry, try it on someone else.

Chill Tsarfan. Of course I have heard of Spala and still found no reference to continual bleeding. This is not a challenge to anything, I am merely asking questions and trying to participate in a discussion. Geez.
Hemophilia is a clotting disorder that is characterized by the inability to properly form blood clots. Any small cut or internal hemorrhaging after even a minor bruise were fatal and the bleeding is instant. I have not seen such an example cited by anyone referring to Spala. Most of what I have read attributes the episode at Spala to an engery he received several weeks before while climbing into a boat or a bath tub incident in which he did not instantly bleed.
This isn't a trial. I was just asking for information. I assumed, that on a discussion board, that was allowed. My bad.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2006, 06:51:32 PM by lexi4 »
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Offline lexi4

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #431 on: November 05, 2006, 06:52:50 PM »
two answers here:
1. I personally find it beyond amusing that Mr. Kendrick who is not a medical expert but rather, self admitted, a JOURNALIST, finds that his own profession is highly unreliable as a source. res ipsa loquitor Mr. Kendrick.

2: Spiridovitch, "Les Dernieres Annees..." Vol 2. ch. 12 "The Year 1912" translation by Rob Moshein, copyright.

"However, at Byelovyezhe, Derevenko was not able to prevent harm to the Tsarevtich.  One day, while he was taking his bath, the boy began to engage in all kinds of mischief.  It was a large porcelain bathtub, sunk into the floor and which one got into by several steps on each side and the bathtub had a fairly sharp edge all along its top.  The Tsarevtich had climbed onto the edge of the bathtub wanting to show Derevenko how the sailors on the Standardt would jump off the side of the yacht into the sea to go swimming.  He jumped and fell onto the side of the bathtub.  It hurt him, but without doubt the pain was not very great because he did not say anything afterward.  However, only a few minutes later, he lost conscience and they carried his nearly inanimate body to his bed.
   This accident in a healthy boy would not have had any unfortunate results, but it was for him, who suffered from hemophilia, the start of many severe complications that could never be totally healed.  He was bleeding severely internally.
   As always, the illness was assiduously hidden to the entourage.  They did not feel it necessary to call in a specialist doctor.  They put him totally under the care of the family doctor, Botkin.  It was the Empress herself who directed his treatment.  They cancelled the concerts which the Cavalry Regimental band, whose squadron formed the military guard of the Palace, would give during lunch and dinner.  The Tsarevtich was very upset at that, begged them to resume the concerts, but his request was in vain.
   When he became better, a Cossack from the escort was ordered to carry him around in his arms.  The child suffered greatly and everyone felt his illness.
   So it was under these conditions which we left Byelovyezhe for Spala on September 16th
...
However a new misfortune soon arrived.  Immediately after some bumps that he took while on a promenade in a caleche with the Empress, his health worsened.  The internal bleeding was even worse, and the swelling in his groin increased in size so much so that the child was confined to his bed.  He suffered incredibly. His cries and moans echoed often throughout the Palace, and his fever steadily grew.  Botkin never left him for a moment, but did not know what he could do to bring him relief. His pain grew so bad that the sick child would not permit the swelling to be touched.  He slept on his side, leg folded, pale, thin and never stopped moaning.
   They called the surgeon Serge Petrovitch Fyedorov from Petersburg, and the old Rauchfuss.  They arrived on October 4th, the night before Alexis Nicholaiovitch's Name's day. The illness got worse.  October 6th, his temperature rose to over 39 degrees (102 F.) and would not go down.  After a consultation, the doctors declared that that the situation was desperate.  Fyedorov said that he had decided not to open the swelling, given that they would be operating on the inheritor of the throne, and the operation would bring on fatal bleeding.  Only a miracle could save the child's life, he said.  And when they asked him what that miracle might be, he responded by shrugging his shoulders and said that the swelling might spontaneously be reabsorbed, but that the chance of that actually happening was only less than one in a hundred.
   After this diagnosis, the Minister of the Court was permitted to publish bulletins on the health of the Tsarevitch.  The first bulletin was dated October 8th.  They began to hold services in Spala to pray for a cure for the Tsarevitch.  In the Palace they would hear of no other help from the doctors, and only believed in God.  They gave the last rites to the child.  The catastrophe was expected from one day to the next.  The suffering child was plainly aware that his death was near.
   "Mama, don't forget to put a little monument on my tomb when I'm dead" he whispered one day into his mother's ear, who crazy with suffering, would not leave his side for an instant. (Sabline told me this later, who had been told it from the Empress herself.)
   It seemed that all was over.  The crisis approached.  And it was at this critical moment that Their Majesties received a telegram from Rasputin which read:
   "The illness will not be dangerous. Do not let the doctors make him tired."
   In a second telegram, the "staryets" said that he had prayed, that God had heard his prayers and had granted them.
   And then an incredible thing happened: the Tsarevitch began to get better and to go into recovery.
   His mother, in all her happiness, saw only one thing: his health had come back from her "friend", and it had been his prayers that had saved the life of her child.
   From that moment on, the Empress's faith in Rasputin was unshakeable and there was no force in the world that would ever alienate the "staryets" from the friendship of the Imperial Family.

Thank you FA. That is what I was asking for and I appreciate you taking the time to post it.
Lexi
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #432 on: November 05, 2006, 07:55:29 PM »
Chill Tsarfan. Of course I have heard of Spala and still found no reference to continual bleeding. This is not a challenge to anything, I am merely asking questions and trying to participate in a discussion. Geez.

Sorry if I over-reacted, Lexi4.  But since these references can be found as easily by you as by me with an internet search, I took the request for the number of hours that the bleeds lasted and the request for specific sources as a dodge.  Again, sorry if I misunderstood your intent.

The pain and swelling about which you said you already knew are the symptoms of internal bleeding.  External bleeding was largely manageable with hemophiliacs in that era.  It was the internal bleeds that were so threatening and so debilitating.

Much of Mr. Kendrick's theory that Alexei had an aplastic crisis at Spala instead of a hemophilia attack rests on the argument that there had been no injury immediately preceding the start of the bleed and that it spontaneously stopped several days later.

In fact, hemophilia has exactly those same symptoms.  Hemophilia is currently assigned three levels of severity.  Before modern treatment, spontaneous bleeds not caused by specific injury, especially in joints and the abdomen, were a very common occurrence with the most severe level and an occasional occurence at the middle level.  Likewise, assuming the victim didn't die in the meantime, there would be an eventual cessation of bleeding.  Hemophilia doesn't mean bleeding never stops.  It means it takes a prolonged period of time to stop.  Sometimes the pressure of the internal swelling itself staunches the bleeding.  In the meantime, joints and organs can suffer irreversible or fatal damage.

And, guess what?  The medical literature says that the most common age for spontaneous hemophilia bleeds is between the years of 5 and 15.  Wanna guess how old Alexei was when he had the attacks at Spala and at Tobolsk?

But again, no matter what the proper diagnosis, Alexei indisputably had life-threatening occurences of uncontrolled internal bleeding, with the two most serious attacks being at Spala in 1912 and Tobolsk in 1918.

So, back to the two questions to Mr. Kendrick . . .

Are you saying the tsesarevich Alexei did not have a disorder (regardless of its name) that caused uncontrolled bleeding for prolong periods?  And did or did not Heino Tammet have a disorder (regardless of its name) that had those symptoms?

Offline Mazukov

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #433 on: November 05, 2006, 08:02:30 PM »
 Confessions. Let the truth be told now. I am not whom I say I am. For my real name Is John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Many of you believe that I was killed in Dallas. However I survived. I was secretly taken to a military base, where doctors patched me up My wife Jackie only hooked up with Aristotle, so that they could hide me on  island.where i spent my time healing from my wounds and hiding from the world.
Now this Mr. Kendrick has found correspondence between myself and the now current President, he has threatened to reveal my secret to the world for all to see. Like he did with Heino Tammet, the heir to the Imperial Russian throne. After much thought on this matter, and after consultations with my brother Teddy,Iím coming out of the closet to save what is left of my name.

Ok the fact of the matter is really simple Mr. Kendrick. When we look at the young Alexi. We see a very ill young man who could not have had the strength  to have survived the slaughter that happened in that room so many years ago. When we read the accounts of the assassins, itís imposable that anyone could have survived the wounds that had been inflected pone this poor soul. Let alone be strong enough to get away from the assassins during the early morning hours when they tried to destroy what was left of the remains of his family.

My opening statement makes about enough truth as the clams by Tammet, we all can believe what we want but the facts sir, can not be overlooked. Fact is no one survived that dreadful night, as much as we all would like to think that perhaps someone did.

You see, we all can boost all we like. But boosting with out facts! Is just what it is boosting.Where is the DNA? Most importantly if such a clam should be real then DNA should have been done without any questions. .Just the facts.when someone can produce actual facts that Tammet was who he said he was then Iíll believe. Until then your sub par fact doesnít hold water.

Offline Georgiy

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Re: One thing I find odd
« Reply #434 on: November 05, 2006, 08:57:58 PM »
JFK, AKA Mazukov, you know as well as I do that if ever there was a DNA test done on this Tannet fellow, and the results (strangely enough) showed him not to be Tsesarevich Alexei, then we'll have that whole 'conspiracy' switched intestines kind of thing we saw with Anna Anderson. Wasn't it Mulder on X Files who said "I want to believe..."