Author Topic: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life  (Read 134179 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2005, 08:03:36 AM »
We sure do ;) Gleb and his sister lived with the IF until they were taken to Ekaterinburg, so he'd know things. The idea of bribing an ex employee is interesting, anything is possible, somebody HAD to tell her since we know she wasn't Anastasia. She didn't have money to bribe anybody with, however, there was always the hope and promise of those mystery bank accounts people used to believe in. It could have been a combination of various Russian emigres', some intentionally feeding her to help her cause, some maybe accidently giving her info in conversation (though I have wondered if she were bright or sane enough to pick up on it incidently like that) But no matter what we know someone told her, and there was a huge population of  Russians who had fled the revolution living in Europe so it's highly probable, and I am sure of it, I just don't know for sure who or why (though I do have my suspects)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline JM

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2005, 10:15:04 AM »
Annie, how can you go on and on about "subjective" evidence and how it lacks credibility, and then develop a subjective pet theory of your own and imagine it to be valid?

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2005, 10:19:59 AM »
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Annie, how can you go on and on about "subjective" evidence and how it lacks credibility, and then develop a subjective pet theory of your own and imagine it to be valid?


Isn't that what everyone does, study the evidence and form an opinion? Mine is just as good as anyone else's. I have already stated it's my opinion, it doesn't have to speak for you or anyone else. But since NO ONE can prove anything how does it hurt to offer a theory that makes sense?

Besides, there IS written evidence, letters of the FS family, that back up some of what I've said. That's another reason I believe it so strongly. Then there is the DNA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2005, 10:23:44 AM »
We don't have answers to these questions, and I doubt we ever will. We can go by the most objective evidence we could get which showed that AA couldn't have been AN. But I doubt we will ever know for sure and have 100% proof that AA really was FS, although we can draw some reasonable conclusions based on the evidence we do have. This case involves a lot of subjective speculation on either side, and most things can be conceivably explained away one way or another. So this is what  we must accept. But it doesn't mean we can't continue to chew the fat  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Maria_Romanov_fan

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2005, 01:22:36 PM »
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We don't have answers to these questions, and I doubt we ever will. We can go by the most objective evidence we could get which showed that AA couldn't have been AN. But I doubt we will ever know for sure and have 100% proof that AA really was FS, although we can draw some reasonable conclusions based on the evidence we do have. This case involves a lot of subjective speculation on either side, and most things can be conceivably explained away one way or another. So this is what  we must accept. But it doesn't mean we can't continue to chew the fat  ;)


Yupp. I think AA had her mouth shut for a LONG time. :-X
It would have been dramatic that on her death bed she told someone close she WASN'T Anastasia...
But (sighs) somehow she fooled alot of people.  

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2005, 01:34:44 PM »
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It would have been dramatic that on her death bed she told someone close she WASN'T Anastasia...
 


I don't think this would have happened because I think she actually came to believe that she was Anastasia. In any case, "deathbed confessions" only happen in movies  ;)

Maria_Romanov_fan

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2005, 02:09:20 PM »
LOL me too Helen. I think, like you, that after a time of pretending so much, she got carried away...

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2005, 02:15:53 PM »
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LOL me too Helen. I think, like you, that after a time of pretending so much, she got carried away...


You know, I am not even so sure that she ever even "pretended". She may initially have had amnesia, after jumping off that bridge, and later she had fixated on AN's identity (hey, could have been worse  ;)). I've met someone with amnesia before, they really can't remember who they are, so it's not just a concept from soap operas  ;D! This usually happens from a physical trauma, the person I knew got hit by a car. Anyway, eventually they do remember most things except short term, but it just depends on the extent of the trauma. In AA's case, she obviously incorporated AN's identity into her own very strongly, so she may never had remembered who she really was, or even when she did, she repressed it because she wanted to be Anastasia so much....  

Offline JM

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2005, 04:15:17 PM »
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Isn't that what everyone does, study the evidence and form an opinion? Mine is just as good as anyone else's. I have already stated it's my opinion, it doesn't have to speak for you or anyone else. But since NO ONE can prove anything how does it hurt to offer a theory that makes sense?

Annie, where is the evidence that the Botkins fed AA her "memories?" You are forming a theory based on an assumption, and that makes no "sense."

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Besides, there IS written evidence, letters of the FS family, that back up some of what I've said. That's another reason I believe it so strongly. Then there is the DNA.

Do these letters explain the orgin of AA's "memories?" Do these letters mention the Botkins as their possible orgin? I'm, just wondering because, frankly, I haven't seen them.  :-/

. . . and then there is the DNA; which comes back nicely to my original point: why stoop to the level of [some] AA supporters by making unsubstantiated subjective claims? I have seen you ridicule others for doing just that! I mean, you have your proof! I really don't think that making accusations serves you any purpose.

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2005, 04:31:07 PM »
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Annie, where is the evidence that the Botkins fed AA her "memories?" You are forming a theory based on an assumption, and that makes no "sense."


Makes a lot more sense than believing she actually was Anastasia;) It's mine and Alice's, and writer John Godl's opinion that Gleb had a big hand in feeding her the memories. Since he is dead this can never be proven or disproved, but it's a good guess since SOMEBODY DID feed her memories because she WASN'T ANASTASIA. While we can only speculate on who, it happened.

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Do these letters explain the orgin of AA's "memories?"


There is no 'memory' that can't be explained away as someone who lived in Russia before the revolution telling her.


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Do these letters mention the Botkins as their possible orgin? I'm, just wondering because, frankly, I haven't seen them.  


No, it's just correspondance of the family, with each other or others, discussing their sister being FS. This is the only one I can find right now, I save it on my computer in case it's needed, again, if I find the others I will save them too.

At least two of the siblings recognized her,Felix and Gertrude even if they at the end of the day refused to sign a statement that they had. Gertrude said to AA: You are my sister,I know it! I read about a letter sent to Gertrude by the lawyer of Barbara of Mecklenburg who was the formal opposer of AA in the trials. The lawyer Hans-Herman Krampff wrote to Mrs Gertrude Ellerik the 11 April 1959: "The research made in the meantime has resulted that at the confrotation with Mrs Anderson in 1938 you were not the only one who recognized her as your sister Franziska. Your brothers and sisters also did but abstained to say so in order not to make obstacles of the career of their sister. Afterwards your sister Maria has died and your brother Valerian lives in Poland. So it´s only you and your brother Felix left who can be heard at the trial in Hamburg. I would like to inform you that you have nothing to fear if you told the truth now since the time of a criminal act has expired". From the French journalist Dominique Auclère´s book. Anastasia qui etes-vous?

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. . . and then there is the DNA;


Well, that is a big one :-/


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which comes back nicely to my original point: why stoop to the level of [some] AA supporters by making unsubstantiated subjective claims? I have seen you ridicule others for doing just that! I mean, you have your proof! I really don't think that making accusations serves you any purpose.


Who among us does have proof? We're all just discussing.

Maria_Romanov_fan

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2005, 04:45:10 PM »
She had to get her "memories" from somewhere... or someone.

Offline Denise

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2005, 05:02:09 PM »
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This is the instant point of the letter: "The research made in the meantime has resulted that at the confrotation with Mrs Anderson in 1938 you were not the only one who recognized her as your sister Franziska. Your brothers and sisters also did but abstained to say so in order not to make obstacles of the career of their sister. Afterwards your sister Maria has died and your brother Valerian lives in Poland. So it´s only you and your brother Felix left who can be heard at the trial in Hamburg. I would like to inform you that you have nothing to fear if you told the truth now since the time of a criminal act has expired".

The lawyer who wrote this letter was NOT Gertrude's lawyer, as you so misleadingly identify him. Misleadingly, of course, because if he WAS Gertrude's lawyer, this might suggest some inside knowledge. He was, in fact, the lawyer of Barbara, Duchess of Mecklenburg who was most definitely trying to identify Fraulein U as FS -- if you read this letter in the knowledge that he is a leading attorney on the side AGAINST Fraulein U being Grand Duchess A, then his tone becomes hectoring and brow-beating.  He suggests that he is in possession of evidence proving that Maria Juliana and Valerian recognized FA as FS -- though of course now one is dead and the other is beyond reach behind the Iron Curtain.  He does not expand on this evidence.  He is obviously on a fishing expedition.  Not a powerful piece of evidence at all.



I wanted to bring this back in.  Although there may be a letter from an attorney which Annie implies is "proving" Gertrude knew AA was FS, the fact is we need to know WHOSE lawyer this was, and were his words to be taken at face value or was he just asking leading questions, so to speak?  Objectively, the words cannot be taken either way without knowing who was writing that letter and why.  And remember, despite "recognizing" AA as FS at their meeting, Gertrude declined to sign an affadavit that AA was her sister.  

I am inclined to believe that this lawyer was as Penny states:  trying to lead her out into claiming AA as her lost sister FS...

Denise
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Denise »

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2005, 05:14:51 PM »
Sure sounds to me like it was common knowledge the family knew she was their sister, that's why the lawyer used it. There is also another letter between Felix and a niece calling her 'sister.' I'm not inclined to believe much of 'what Penny states' because it sure seems as if she is trying anything to prove AA was not FS at all costs. She has lost all credibility to me. Her insults and childish responses to my posts have destroyed what little respect I may have had left.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline JM

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2005, 05:31:06 PM »
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Makes a lot more sense than believing she actually was Anastasia;) It's mine and Alice's, and writer John Godl's opinion that Gleb had a big hand in feeding her the memories. Since he is dead this can never be proven or disproved, but it's a good guess since SOMEBODY DID feed her memories because she WASN'T ANASTASIA. While we can only speculate on who, it happened.

Yes, it is your opinion: but what exactly is it backed up by? Oh and BTW, I do believe that you are making a fundamental error when you say that "SOMEBODY DID feed her memories." That little statement is not backed up by any evidence and the fact that you would make it makes me seriously doubt whether you honestly seek the truth.  :-/
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There is no 'memory' that can't be explained away as someone who lived in Russia before the revolution telling her.

Oh, I'm sure that there are. But I'm not going off on that tangent because obviously we all have our own schema and we would all interpret any "memories" differently.
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No, it's just correspondance of the family, with each other or others, discussing their sister being FS. This is the only one I can find right now, I save it on my computer in case it's needed, again, if I find the others I will save them too.

At least two of the siblings recognized her,Felix and Gertrude even if they at the end of the day refused to sign a statement that they had. Gertrude said to AA: You are my sister,I know it! I read about a letter sent to Gertrude by the lawyer of Barbara of Mecklenburg who was the formal opposer of AA in the trials. The lawyer Hans-Herman Krampff wrote to Mrs Gertrude Ellerik the 11 April 1959: "The research made in the meantime has resulted that at the confrotation with Mrs Anderson in 1938 you were not the only one who recognized her as your sister Franziska. Your brothers and sisters also did but abstained to say so in order not to make obstacles of the career of their sister. Afterwards your sister Maria has died and your brother Valerian lives in Poland. So it´s only you and your brother Felix left who can be heard at the trial in Hamburg. I would like to inform you that you have nothing to fear if you told the truth now since the time of a criminal act has expired". From the French journalist Dominique Auclère´s book. Anastasia qui etes-vous?

I didn't see the name Botkin.
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Well, that is a big one :-/

Indeed!
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Who among us does have proof? We're all just discussing.

I simply presumed that such an accusation against the Botkins required some sort of evidence. But as you have shown no evidence I think that you need to stop dissing them. You're not discussing, you're theorizing. I actually have no problem with that, but since you have shown yourself to be very unyielding when it comes to alternative theories, I think that it's only fair you are held to that same standard.

Offline Annie

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Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2005, 05:50:48 PM »
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Yes, it is your opinion: but what exactly is it backed up by? Oh and BTW, I do believe that you are making a fundamental error when you say that "SOMEBODY DID feed her memories." That little statement is not backed up by any evidence and the fact that you would make it makes me seriously doubt whether you honestly seek the truth.  :-/


It's backed up by the fact that THE DNA PROVED AA WAS NOT AN SO THEREFORE SOMEONE HAD TO HAVE FED THEM TO HER BECAUSE SHE WAS NOT ANASTASIA!!!!!

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Oh, I'm sure that there are. But I'm not going off on that tangent because obviously we all have our own schema and we would all interpret any "memories" differently.
I didn't see the name Botkin.
Indeed!
I simply presumed that such an accusation against the Botkins required some sort of evidence. But as you have shown no evidence I think that you need to stop dissing them. You're not discussing, you're theorizing. I actually have no problem with that, but since you have shown yourself to be very unyielding when it comes to alternative theories, I think that it's only fair you are held to that same standard.


I never said I had any proof it was Botkin, no one does, but it is a possible and very likely theory.

This guy openly claims it was Botkin:

http://www.serfes.org/royal/annaanderson.htm

As far as 'dissing' him, all I'm saying is that he was a likely source of information since he knew AN.  No one here has any proof but it doesn't stop people from speculating. Speaking of defaming, what about the guy who accused Queen Elizabeth II of switching the intestines and rigging the results?? People say all kinds of things here. I think the reason people get so ferocious over the suggestion that Botkin did it is because it makes too much sense and hurts the AA case so badly! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »