Author Topic: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)  (Read 139452 times)

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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #330 on: October 14, 2013, 03:33:15 PM »
Maybe on Duke Max's side...An Arenberg perhaps.

Offline Превед

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #331 on: October 14, 2013, 04:04:31 PM »
Could it be Princess Louise Pauline Sidonie of Arenberg (* 18.12.1820 Bruxelles - + 11.5.1853 Bruxelles)? She was the great granddaughter of Duke Max's great grandfather, Duke Charles Marie Raymond of Arenberg. So she was Max's second cousin, the girls' second cousin once removed, and being some years older, perhaps thought of as an aunt?

Do we know how long it was customary to porter le deuil ? I think it was one year for close relatives, but much shorter for more distant relatives and hardly at all for children, the infant mortality being so high. As far as I can see, no-one in their immediate family had died within the year August 1852 - August 1853.

But the Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar died the 8.7.1853. As his mother was a Princess of Hesse-Darmstadt and his grandmother, a Princess of Zweibrücken-Birkenfeld line, was King Maximilian I of Bavaria's aunt, he would perhaps also be a candidate, as he was Duchess Ludovika's second cousin and the person in question once more the girls second cousin once removed.

And no doubt the whole Bavarian court would mourn a fellow, related sovereign far more seriously than an unmarried aristocratic lady realted to a side branch.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 04:35:03 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Hector

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #332 on: October 14, 2013, 07:15:36 PM »
Read awhile ago that Helene and Sissi were in mourning for a relative of the Queen of Bavaria (unsure if that was Queen Therese or Queen Marie)?

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #333 on: October 14, 2013, 08:11:00 PM »
Queen Marie I think, Queen Therese wasn't queen yet when Sisi was a girl.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #334 on: October 14, 2013, 08:12:53 PM »
Not sure since Archduchess Sofie wasn't in mourning (remember she was a princess of Bavaria) it must be from perhaps Duke Max's side.

Offline Hector

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #335 on: October 14, 2013, 10:53:33 PM »
Queen Marie I think, Queen Therese wasn't queen yet when Sisi was a girl.
You're think of the wrong Queen Therese. I guess you're thinking of Ludwig III's wife, but I was referring to Ludwig I's wife.

Not sure since Archduchess Sofie wasn't in mourning (remember she was a princess of Bavaria) it must be from perhaps Duke Max's side.
I don't think so and esp. "must" is a bit strong. Sophie was Austrian and Ludovika was still in Bavaria and if the Queen's relative died, the court or at least the Queen would go into mourning and Ludovika would also go into mourning in sympathy for her Queen.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 11:01:53 PM by Hector »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #336 on: October 15, 2013, 11:13:52 AM »
Too far behind. Don't think The Queen Mum will be in mourning for Queen Mary's Hungarian cousin...

You mean Queen Marie (mother of Ludwig & a Hohenzollern) ? Yes, but Archduchess Sofie was a Bavarian princess too, if it was "her" relative, she would be required to wear mourning too. Remember Empress Marie Feodorovna (Dagmar of Denmark) had to change her ball to the ball noir because of mourning for an Austrian archduke. So I think there is a strong possibility that the person was related to Duke Max, but not to his wife Ludovika and Sofie so forth.

Offline Hector

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #337 on: October 15, 2013, 12:06:32 PM »
Okay, this isn't neither here nor there. Again, read that Helene and Sissi were in black for a mourning of "an aunt" (or a relative of the Queen of Bavaria) in summer of 1853. Wondering if anything know who it is?

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #338 on: October 15, 2013, 01:06:29 PM »
You mean anyone right ? Are we sure it was Queen Marie ?

Offline Hector

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #339 on: October 15, 2013, 04:12:29 PM »
You mean anyone right ? Are we sure it was Queen Marie ?
I'm not sure. Still anybody know?

Offline synnadene

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #340 on: August 12, 2016, 02:13:01 AM »

Helene


Offline MarieCharlotte

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #341 on: September 23, 2016, 02:43:30 PM »
Hi synnadene! Wow, where did you find these rare pictures of Helene? She looks extremely strict and unhappy, almost angry - especially in the second picture. But I like them. It's always fantastic to see something new...  :)
Ich aber breite trauernd aus
die weiten weissen Schwingen,
Und kehr' ins Feenreich nach Haus -
Nichts soll mich wieder bringen.


Elisabeth

Offline Maria Sisi

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Re: Helene of Thurn und Taxis (Duchess in Bavaria)
« Reply #342 on: September 23, 2016, 09:13:19 PM »
Judging from pictures of all Max and Ludovica's daughters tightly pursed lips seem to be a family trait. Kings Ludwig and Otto had it too so perhaps its a Wittlesbach one. It varied from one to another but Helene's seems to be the most severe of them all. It was much softer with Elisabeth and Sophie who were considered the beauties of the girls.

She looks very strict and serious and lacking any frivolity. Exactly what Archduchess Sophie desired when she selected Helene to be future Empress of Austria. Although in my personal opinion, with that facial expression, her apparent shy nervousness, and the unflattering black mourning clothes, I can easily see why Franz Joseph fell for the more carefree Elisabeth at Ischl instead.