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Topic: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals  (Read 40119 times)
« on: February 24, 2006, 01:26:20 PM »
polignac Offline
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I would like more about the duchesse of Maine..The only thing I know about her is what is in wikipedia...and th information isn't great...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne%2C_Duchess_of_Maine
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« on: February 24, 2006, 01:29:42 PM »
polignac Offline
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she married Louis XIV bastard son, the Duc de Maine..

http://genealogia.netopia.pt/pessoas/pes_show.php?id=14934
it's a portuguese site..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by polignac » Logged
Reply #2
« on: February 24, 2006, 02:14:34 PM »
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I read that sdhe was called Benedicte after her aunt Benedicte de Baviere Duchess of Braunschweic.She was very small she had a fine face but ugly teeth. She despised her husband since Maine had only a rank od Duke and she was herself a princess of blood, I also red that she creted a sort of order which i think was the order of the honey bee!!!!!  Shocked

And as it says in Wikidia she also took part on the conspiracies organised by the Cardinal of Polignac against the Regent. The principle was to put Philippe V of Spain on the throne of France and the Duc du Maine regent in his absence.  
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« on: February 24, 2006, 02:17:04 PM »
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A tiny picture!
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« on: February 24, 2006, 03:02:50 PM »
palatine
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Anne-Louise-Benedicte was named after her mother.  Her father, Henri Jules de Bourbon-Conde, was mentally ill and violent.  


Louise was chosen to marry the Duke of Maine because of her rank and because she was an inch taller than her sisters, all of whom were very short.  Liselotte, Duchess of Orleans, claimed that Louise as an adult was barely as tall as a ten year old child.

Louise was very intelligent and studied subjects that were considered the province of men, such as math, science and Descartes' philosophy.  She hated life at Versailles; after her marriage she held a court of her own at her country estate, where she had a private theater and other amusements.  She had a poor relationship with her weak-willed husband, and she regularly cheated on him.  Louise had a very bad temper which frightened him and made him give way to her in all things.  

Louise's maternal grandmother, Anne de Gonzague, had been one of the most politically important and astute women of her day.  Louise wanted to emulate her grandmother and achieve political power herself.  She hoped to make her husband the Regent of France after the death of Louis XIV, but she was thwarted by Philippe of Orleans, who became Regent instead.  She became involved in plots to assassinate Philippe and install the King of Spain as the titular Regent and her husband as the acting Regent.  Her schemes failed, and she was arrested.  Her husband was arrested too, although he had no idea what she'd been doing.  In time, both were pardoned and they officially reconciled, but they spent little time together or at court.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 12:24:52 PM by Svetabel » Logged
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« on: November 17, 2006, 11:44:31 AM »
Yseult Offline
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This thread is focused on the illegitimate daughters of Louis XIV who survived childhood:

-Marie Anne de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Blois: born in 1666, daughter of Louise de La Vallière. Mademoiselle de Blois was married to Louis Armand I de Bourbon-Conti, prince of Conti

-Louise-Françoise de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Nantes: born in 1673, daughter of Athenaïs de Montespan. Mademoiselle de Nantes was married to Louis III de Bourbon-Condé, duke of Bourbon and prince of Condé.

-Françoise Marie de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Blois: born in 1677, daughter of Athenaïs de Montespan. Mademoiselle de Blois was married to Philippe d´Orleans, duke of Chartres and later Regent of the Reign.

The three ladies were interesting women:

                                                               Marie Anne de Bourbon, princess Conti

Marie Anne, Mademoiselle de Blois, was born in october 1666 at Vicennes. Her father recognized her in letters-patent whick were published in may 1667: Marie Anne was granted with the tittle of Mmlle of Blois, while the mother, Louise de La Vallière, received the dukedom of Vaujours. Just four months later, Louise gave birth to a son, brother of little Marie Anne. At this time, the king had a relationship with Athenaïs, Madame de Montespan. Poor Louise shared the apartments at the Tuileries with Athenaïs until she was tired of her situation. Marie Anne was just four years old when her mother tried to run away from the king, fleeing to the convent of Sainte Marie de Chaillot. But Louise was compelled to return to the royal palace. Three years later, when Marie Anne was aged seven, Louise was finally allowed to enter a Carmelite convent, where she became a nun.

Marie Anne had only thirteen years when she was married to Louis Armand of Bourbon-Contin, aged fifteen. For the first time, a prince of blood (Louis Armand) took as his wife a illegitimate daughter of a king (Marie Anne). Sadly enough, the couple had a catastrophic wedding´s night and the husband never shared the bed of Marie Anne after this. They had not children. In 1685, Marie Anne survived from smallpox, but her husband contracted the smallpox and was dead in five days. Marie Anne was a widow until her own death. She was a beautiful woman, her father loved her so much but she often was involved in quarrels with her half-sisters, Mmlle de Nantes and Mmlle de Blois.

Portraits:










« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 12:02:55 PM by Yseult » Logged
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« on: November 17, 2006, 12:44:17 PM »
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                        Louise Françoise de Bourbon, princess Condé, and Françoise Marie de Bourbon, duchess of Chartres

Louise Françoise was born in 1673 at Tournai. Françoise Marie was born in 1677. The two were daughters of Athenaïs de Montespan. Their upbringing was entrusted to Françoise Scarron, later madame of Maintenon, later second morganatic wife of their father the king. By the way, the two sisters hated Françoise Scarron, specially Louise Françoise, who always was the favourite children of their mother Athenaïs.

In 1677, when Louise had four years (their parents surnamed her "poupotte" because she seemed a pretty doll) and Françoise was just a baby, Athenaïs was involved in the famous scandal of the Poissons. I don´t know how much impressed were the children with this poisoning and whitcraft episode.

Louise was married aged twelve to Louis, aged seventeen...a son Henri Jules by his wife Anne of Bavaria, and, through his father, a grand-son of the Grand Condé. This was an uncessful marriage, although they had eight children. Louise felt neglected by his husband and it is said she had a liaison with the prince François Louis de Bourbon-Conti, probably the real father of her daughter Marie Anne.

Portraits:





Françoise was married, with a dowry of two million francs, to her cousin Philippe d´Orleans. The mother of the groom, Liselotte, was annoyed with this "mésalliance", and the groom, himself, surnamed his bride "Madame Lucifer". The marriage was not happy, but they had seven children.

Portraits:






Françoise, the second Mmlle de Blois,
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Reply #7
« on: November 20, 2006, 06:35:15 PM »
palatine
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This thread is focused on the illegitimate daughters of Louis XIV who survived childhood:

-Marie Anne de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Blois: born in 1666, daughter of Louise de La Vallière. Mademoiselle de Blois was married to Louis Armand I de Bourbon-Conti, prince of Conti

Marie Anne, Mademoiselle de Blois, was born in october 1666 at Vicennes. Her father recognized her in letters-patent whick were published in may 1667: Marie Anne was granted with the tittle of Mmlle of Blois, while the mother, Louise de La Vallière, received the dukedom of Vaujours. Just four months later, Louise gave birth to a son, brother of little Marie Anne. At this time, the king had a relationship with Athenaïs, Madame de Montespan. Poor Louise shared the apartments at the Tuileries with Athenaïs until she was tired of her situation. Marie Anne was just four years old when her mother tried to run away from the king, fleeing to the convent of Sainte Marie de Chaillot. But Louise was compelled to return to the royal palace. Three years later, when Marie Anne was aged seven, Louise was finally allowed to enter a Carmelite convent, where she became a nun.

Marie Anne had only thirteen years when she was married to Louis Armand of Bourbon-Contin, aged fifteen. For the first time, a prince of blood (Louis Armand) took as his wife a illegitimate daughter of a king (Marie Anne). Sadly enough, the couple had a catastrophic wedding´s night and the husband never shared the bed of Marie Anne after this. They had not children. In 1685, Marie Anne survived from smallpox, but her husband contracted the smallpox and was dead in five days. Marie Anne was a widow until her own death. She was a beautiful woman, her father loved her so much but she often was involved in quarrels with her half-sisters, Mmlle de Nantes and Mmlle de Blois.

Marie Anne was very close to her half-brother, the Dauphin, so much so that she facilitated an affair he had with one of her ladies-in-waiting, Mademoiselle de Chouin.  She seems to have clung to the Dauphin and to their father, perhaps because her mother, Louise de la Valliere, had abandoned her when she was very young to join a convent.  She rarely visited her, probably because of abandonment issues and because Louise looked upon her relationship with Louis XIV (and possibly the children she’d had with him) as a terrible mistake that she needed to do penance for.  Marie Anne’s brother, Louis, Comte de Vermandois, was the black sheep of the illegitimate children.  Their father was aghast when he discovered that Vermandois was homosexual and had little to do with him thereafter.  Vermandois died when he was sixteen or so, which must have hurt her deeply. 
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Reply #8
« on: October 06, 2007, 10:16:01 PM »
Sir Ralph of Stradbrooke Offline
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Does anyone have a thorough list of all the illegitimate children of Napoleon I? Everybody knows about Count Leon and Alexandre Walewski, but I've seen some speculations in old books, though I don;t know where I jotted them down.
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Reply #9
« on: October 07, 2007, 03:05:51 AM »
britt.25 Offline
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As you already mentioned, the most secure children of Napoleon are Reichstadt and Walewski. There are no doubts on Walewski, I would say, not only because his mother visited Napoleon on Elba with their son etc etc. Count Walewski was not only very similar in his looks to Napoleon, he did also have the same voice. On a special occasion (funeral), where Walewski was speaking an old general of the dead emperor broke down with the words: "I would never have thought to hear that voice again!" That explains everything I guess..Despite of the clear fact that Walewski was Napoleons son, he never liked to tell openly about it, obviously to save his mothers fame. One day somebody told him about his similarity to his father Napoleon and count Walewski shall have answered: "Oh, I didn't know that you knew the count Walewski that well!" (He ment his mothers first husband with that!)
I don't what, how exactly it was, but Napoleon also supported him with money, and he inheritated also things of Napoleon. The todays descendants still have a lot of napoleonic things at home...
Even the count Léon is said to be surely Napoléon son, even when his mother Eleonore Denuelle was the lover of Murat as well, and so also Murat could have been his father. At the court of Napoleon III he was often supported with money, but as he was a player, he often lost money and got knew new one again by his cousin Napoleon III and his brother Walewski. He was rather considered only as similar to Napoleon from the looking, but not in his character (he was not such a military genius for example, the same with Walewski).
On the tomb stone of the last count Léon (1911-1994) there is clearly mentioned that he is the great- grandson of Napoleon, but who knows the truth....


The other speculated children are the following:


* Émilie Louise Marie Françoise Joséphine Pellapra von Françoise-Marie LeRoy

*Karl Eugin von Mühlfeld von Victoria Kraus

*Hélène Napoleone Bonaparte (1816–1910) von Gräfin Montholon

* Jules Barthélemy-Saint-Hilaire (1805–1895)


But one has to be very careful with it:


1) The Pellapra story is not proved and by many historians rather considered as pure fiction, many hold the opinion that this lady was making up famous ancestry for herself. Especially because there is no proof at all that her mother was really having an intimate relation to Napoleon at the time, when she became pregant. So she will rather be from her mothers husband, I would say, but not Napoleon's daughter.

2) The Victoria Krauss story is something completely unknown to me. I tried to find out more about an alleged illegitimate son of Napoleon by that austrian lady, but I could't. Until now I only found the dates and not more. It would be wonderful, if someone might know more about the backgound of that. On a website in the net I read that somebody wanted to name further sources, but I didn't find it anymore. So until now I don't have any further details...Help is welcome!

3) The thing with Helene is speculation as well, as far as I know. It is connected with the murder theory of Napoleon (in which I do not believe in any way)

4) This is also someting quite strange.  St. Hilaire shall have written in an own biography that he knew that Napoleon was his father, but he does not name his mother. He also told that both shall have been ashamed to talk about it openly and so on. I don't know what to think about it, i personally do not believe that Napoleon was St. Hilaires father, because there are too little facts.


Apart from those I did not find any other speculated children of Napoleon, but if you could find the book, and there might be others as well, I would be interested.

I had a recent contact with a german historian and genealogist, who is working at a complete genealogy on Napoleon and all his alleged children. and even about the bastards and alleged bastards of the brothers. etc  I'll write to him again to ask, when his book will be published. I suppose it will be very interesting, because the man is a very good & well known genealogist,  able to lead back all famous and not famous families to people like Karl the Great and so on...!


« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 03:17:08 AM by britt.25 » Logged

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« on: October 07, 2007, 08:07:42 AM »
Mari Offline
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In 1955 the diaries of Louis Marchand, Napoléon's valet, appeared in print. He describes Napoléon in the months leading up to his death, and led many, most notably Sten Forshufvud and Ben Weider, to conclude that he had been killed by arsenic poisoning. Arsenic was at the time sometimes used as a poison undetectable when administered over a long period of time. In 2001 Pascal Kintz, of the Strasbourg Forensic Institute in France, added credence to this claim with a study of arsenic levels found in a lock of Napoléon's hair preserved after his death, with seven to thirty-eight times normal levels.

Cutting up hairs into short segments and analysing each segment individually provides a histogram of arsenic concentration in the body. This analysis on hair from Napoléon suggests that large but non-lethal doses were absorbed at random intervals. The arsenic severely weakened Napoléon and stayed in his system. There, it could react with calomel- and mercury-based compounds -- common medicines at the time -- which would be the immediate cause of his death.
Quote
www.biographybase.com/biography/Napoleon.html

I was surprised to read this...about the Arsenic!  I wonder if the Memoirs of that Valet would contain information about the Natural Children of Napoleon.
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« on: October 07, 2007, 11:18:25 AM »
britt.25 Offline
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I think we already have the poisoning theory discussed a bit in the topic on Napoleon in general. I personally do not share the opinion of Ben Weider's book, even when I did not read the whole book. I think there's no proof that Napoleon had died of any arsenic poisoning. Recent investigations have rather supported the "old knowlege", which means that Napoleon had an ulcer, which became cancer with the time. It was already of common knowlege that Napoleon died of stomach cancer since many years, but generally it was thougt that it was the same kind like his father Carlo Maria and some other members of the napoleonic family. Recent examinations proved it was an infection with the well- known Helicobacter, which caused an ulcer, which, also as a consequence of Napoleon's living- and eating orders, became cancer, which let him die. There were different symptoms leading to the diagnosis, especially the losing of weight, the repeated vomiting and other things like that.
The arsenic theory is only a theory, but no murder of Napoleon is proved. That's not only my personal opinion...

Back to the bastards: It's a pity that literature on the illegitimate children of Napoleon is rather rare. I wished there were more. Especially also translated in German or English. Does anybody know good literature on the subject? On Walewski there is the book "Walewski- fils de Napoleon" by Philippe Poirson. As I don't know french, I haven't read it until now, but it must be interesting, mine is quite old- from the fourtees!!!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 11:28:16 AM by britt.25 » Logged

La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)
Reply #12
« on: October 07, 2007, 03:07:12 PM »
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I've studied Napoleonic (well primarily the First Empire and the Bonapartes of that generation--Not the Second Empire as much and Napoleon III) for roughly seventeen years now, which seems impossible! Anyway, I've read Marchand's memoirs and I'm not entirely sure if there is exact proof he mentions for poisoning, but if anything he detailed Napoleon's decline and symptoms well enough to I guess raise question with certain theories. I am not sure where I stand on the poisoning theory, from my years of study, I'd say that there was definitely questionable things surrounding Napoleon's death. I've heard it ascribed from everything to poison, poisoned wallpaper, cancer, and even liver disease. I don't know if there will actually ever be a very definitive answer on that, and that's probably the appeal of it also. The "great" mystery.

But as to the children:

I personally know that the most common and widely accepted are Walweski and Count Leon. However, I do know some who strongly believe Pellapra and Helene were also his daughters. I haven't really seen a lot of information on Pellapra, so that was really interesting to read there that there may be some speculation that this was invention. It never seemed legit to me just because Napoleon's mistresses were somewhat well documented. And this Pellapra seems to appear out of nowhere. And as for the other two, I had never come across them before.

I do have one book  Napoleon's Children by the author Susan Normington. In there she boils it down to three children...Walweski, Count Leon and Pellapra. It's rather interesting, I'll have to go back and take a look at it. It's mainly about the beginnings of the Second Empire. So the step children, Eugene and Hortense, are talked about as well.
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« on: October 07, 2007, 10:32:14 PM »
Mari Offline
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I found this on Pellapra:

Quote
the beauty which she held so dear was inherited from her real Father
Quote

A Daughter of Napoleon: Memoirs of Emilie de Pellapra, Comtesse de Brigode by Emilie de Pellapra de Riquet Chimay

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z7AEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=emilie+louise+pellapra+natural+daughter+of+napoleon+i&source=web&ots=n8iGmFDyB8&sig=IgTOsoRQ0FFhvB-2nbxSN_m-Y8k#PPA11,M1


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« on: October 08, 2007, 02:33:50 AM »
britt.25 Offline
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Hello Mari,

Where did you find the first quotation?

I don't know, but I have read that some state that P. was not similar to Napoleon, but to his sister Pauline.

Yes, The book you't have mentioned is the one, which P. wrote herself and stated to be Napoleon's daughter. But I've read that there is no proof that her mother was together with Napoleon at that "special" time. Many rather tend to say that  she was making up famous ancestry for herself.

I think, only the book, which was mentioned by Sprocket, takes the P.-story serious, but I can be wrong. I did't read it until now and maybe it could be a good lecture...
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La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)
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