Author Topic: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals  (Read 61883 times)

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Offline Mari

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2007, 12:01:53 AM »
That quotation is from the book that I cited below it.   I gave the title below the quote  and a way to look at it on google books. Supposedly Pellagra looked like Napoleon but there is a lot of information about her life and her Mother.

Offline britt.25

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2007, 01:46:50 AM »
Oh yes, now I have seen it. Did you read the full book? Which impression do you have?
Does she state that her mother told her that Nap. was her father or something?

Thank you. I'll look for the book...
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline britt.25

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2007, 01:50:51 AM »



I've found hat picture of Emilie on the net. Maybe anyone knows it. My impression is not that there is any similariy neither to Napoleon himself nor to any other Bonaparte members, even not to his sister Pauline, as it was stated. What do others think? Are there more pics of her?
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Sprocket

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2007, 02:15:31 AM »
I have seen a few pictures of her and I have a few in my books. Right now my scanner is down, but I can scan them in when it's back and running.

To me she looks a lot like her mother.

According to the book I have...the one I mentioned in a previous post here is the big intro of Pellapra:

"Caroline immediately sent the news to Napoleon by courier. Nobody, however, seems to have informed him of the birth of his other child, which had occurred in Lyons on 11 November. The mother was Francoise-Marie-Emilie Pellapra, the pretty scatterbrain whom he had met in Lyons in the spring of 1805 and who had eagerly followed him to Paris to be seduced in an alcove adjoining his map-room in the Tuileries. She was slim and attractive, dark-haired and blue-eyed, married to a dour minor government official who was far from appreciating the honor conferred on his wife by the Emperor. Later, when Napoleon heard of the birth and rewarded the cuckolded husband with a post as tax collector, Alain Pellapra relented a little, but his first instinct was to deny paternity of the child. After sending Francoise back to her native Lyons for the birth, he insisted on the child being left there with his mother-in-law, Madame Louise Leroy. The baby girl was given a mixture of her mother's names, her grandmother's and that of Napoleon's deceived wife, for it was still popular to name children after Our Lady of Victories, the gracious Josephine, and Madame Pellapra was giddy-minded enough not to see anything odd in it. For most of the next four years little Emilie-Louise-Marie-Francoise-Josephine stayed in the Leroy apartment in the center of Lyons. From the balcony she could peep across the plain of Les Brotteaux, the scene of some of the most hideous atrocities of the Revolution. Day by day her cheeks plumped into an Italian chubbiness, her small nose gently curved into a budgerigar beak. There could be no doubt she was a Bonaparte."

Well...I don't know. She doesn't resemble the Bonaparte's that much. And really? An alcove of a map-room?

Offline britt.25

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2007, 04:00:59 AM »
Thanks for the interesting part of the book. Yes, I would be interested in seeing more pictures of her, even when the story seems strange to me. I once read that there was no proof that she really net Napoleon intimately in the year 1805 as it was stated here, so I don't know what to think. Stories like that always make me crazy, I have different other cases (not concerning Napoleon) where I think everyday, is it true or not etc.
So Napoleon must have known the child as well? Are they also pictures of her offcial father, the husband of her mother? Concerning the mentioned Bonaparte nose, I cannot recognize it on the picture... ::) But maybe on the others. Strange; I never found portraits on her or her mother. I really wonder, if they were together or not.
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Mari

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2007, 09:31:00 AM »
http://www.usc.edu/programs/cst/deadfiles/lacasis/ansc100/library/images/101.html

take a look at this image of Napoleon and see if it doesn't look like Pellapra around the  nose, mouth and chin.

 Alain Pellapra certainly believed that his wife had a Child by Napoleon. He had the Child left with her Grandmother till she was four and He appears to have been less than cordial to her and her Mother the rest of their lives. Francoise-Marie-Emilie Pellapra, had items that Napoleon had given her as gifts. I am still scanning the Book with the link I gave.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 09:33:04 AM by Mari »

Offline britt.25

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2007, 02:53:06 AM »
Has the one, who one told it, maybe found more pics of Pellapra in between? As I only know the posted one, I would be thankful so see more. However it still seems more speculation to me that story...
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Marc

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2007, 01:03:04 PM »
Hi,I would like to know why so little is known about Laura Mancini,while we know so much about her famous sisters?Plenty of portraits of her family and yet none of her...she still married rather well,a Bourbon,so something more schould be known about her...

Offline Mari

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2007, 04:08:20 AM »
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portail%3AFrance_du_Grand_Si%25C3%25A8cle&hl=en&langpair=fr|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8

She died at 21 and this may explain the lack of Paintings. However all the Sisters were considered Beauties. Laura was a brunette with a handsome face!

http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/Aff--CONF/CTID--685781756/RFID--504682/TKID--0/pd--12263265/posters.htm       Three of the Sisters painted ......


Description of the Mancini Sisters: google book five fair Sisters: an Italian Episode at the Court of Louis XIV
http://books.google.com/books?id=47kvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=paintings+of+the+nieces+of+cardinal+mazarin&source=web&ots=ZgjVhtJbUq&sig=5dk7kE1hFWik8j2qwUxA5f_fgqs



Laura Mancini (1636 - 1657) was The oldest of the five Mancini sisters, nieces of cardinal Mazarin. She was also mother of the great general Louis Joseph, duc de Vendôme, and aunt of his famous opponent Eugene of Savoy.
#

Marie Anne Mancini (Rome, 1649 - Paris 1714), niece of Cardinal Mazarin, was the youngest of the five Mancini sisters. Her sisters were Laura, Olympia, Marie and Hortense.
#

Ortensia or Hortense Mancini, Duchess of Mazarin 1699), was the niece of Cardinal Mazarin and a mistress of Charles II. At age 15 she married Armand-Charles de la Meilleraye, one of the richest men of the time.
#

Olimpia Mancini, (1639 —1708) an Italian noblewoman, was one of the five daughters of Geronima, a sister of Cardinal Mazarin. She was also the mother of the famous general Prince Eugene of Savoy.

Olympia was accused in 1679 in the Poison affair, a murder scandal in France during the reign of King Louis XIV. She is said to have plotted with La Voisin to poison Louise de La Vallière.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 04:36:29 AM by Mari »

Offline britt.25

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2008, 03:15:56 AM »
I have now ordered the book "Napoleon's children" by Susan Normington, as we had mentioned before, and I'm going to post some interesting pictures, which I have found here.

There are two on Napoleon's alleged mistress, Francoise Pellapra, one when being younger and one when being older:






And two of her daughter, who might be of Napoleon or not, Emilie:

When a baby:



And when an adult:




I haven't read the book yet, as I just got it some days ago, but it seems that Normington supports the the thesis that Emilie was the only daughter of Napoleon, fruit from a Liaison of her mother with Napoleon in 1805 (Emilie was born in 1806)

However many other authors and historians have reasonable doubts on that point that he they could have been together in 1805 in Lyon, where the relationship was reported to have taken place, as Napoleon was in Italy at that time for being crowned as king there, when the child was "made". Many say that they did not meet until the year 1910. So the story remaines strange and discussed.

From the pictures it is hard to say. It seems that Emilie was much similar to her mother, as it was already mentioned here. Only on the child picture she might resemble Napoleon a bit, especially the "heavy" head and the eyes a bit, too.  But it stays speculation. A pity.
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Mari

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2008, 05:56:14 AM »
Yes, I agree the baby picture does resemble Napoleon to me also. Yes, it will be left to to the Historian as they write each Book. Some will lean toward Yes and some No that She was his daughter. Very interesting though.

Offline tecklenburg

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2008, 12:37:54 PM »
Hello, I would like some infos about Charlotte Mademoiselle d'Issoudun (1808-1886), daughter of HRH the duke of Berry. She was married by her step-mother Carolina to Prince of Faucigny-Lucinge after her father's murder. I know that her somptuous trousseau was admirated by many parisians at that time. (I remembered this details from book of alain decaux the duchess of berry, I think

Offline tecklenburg

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2008, 12:43:20 PM »
2nd part

well I would like to know if Mademoiselle kept strong ties with her siblings Mademoiselle & Henri V. Did they visit each others? Or write to each other?

Offline Mari

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2008, 05:00:34 AM »
Charlotte Marie Augustine de Bourbon, Comtesse d'Issoudun was born on 13 July 1808 at London, England.1 She was the daughter of Charles Ferdinand de Bourbon, Duc de Berri and Amy Brown.1 She married Ferdinand Victor Amédée de Faucigny-Lucinge, 1st Prince de Lucinge, son of Louis Charles Amédée de Faucigny-Lucinge, Comte et Marquis de Coligny and Judith Pauline Zoé de Bernard de Sasseney, on 8 October 1823 at Paris, France.1 She died on 13 July 1886 at age 78 at Paris, France.1
     Charlotte Marie Augustine de Bourbon, Comtesse d'Issoudun was created Comtesse d'Issoudun [France] on 10 June 1820, by King Louis XVIII.1 From 8 October 1823, her married name became de Faucigny-Lucinge.
Children of Charlotte Marie Augustine de Bourbon, Comtesse d'Issoudun and Ferdinand Victor Amédée de Faucigny-Lucinge, 1st Prince de Lucinge

    * Prince Charles Marie de Faucigny-Lucinge et Coligny+ b. 17 Aug 1824, d. 11 Mar 1910
    * Louis de Faucigny-Lucinge+ b. 24 Jan 1828, d. 24 Jan 1907
    * Henri de Faucigny-Lucinge+ b. 26 Nov 1831, d. 19 Apr 1899
    * Marguerite de Faucigny-Lucinge b. 9 Apr 1833, d. 21 Jan 1922
    * Rene de Faucigny-Lucinge b. 4 Nov 1841, d. 30 Mar 1911  from the Peerage.com


Citations

   1. [S36] Hugh Montgomery-Massingberd, editor, Burke's Royal Families of the World, Volume 1: Europe & Latin America (London, U.K.: Burke's Peerage Ltd, 1977), page 90. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Royal Families of the World, Volume 1.


She and her Sister were naturalized on the same day!

http://books.google.com/books?id=LHKBWAz9MMQC&pg=RA1-PA274&dq=Charlotte+Marie+augustine+de+Bourbon+1808&ei=Up0VSKHIA4iWzATHlpCHCA&sig=dSD2YNEuAwfrgiYoEEa_uKZktGI

Perhaps someone else has access to Correspondence of hers....


Offline tecklenburg

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Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2008, 05:21:34 AM »
thank you !

according to the names of her children & their dates of biths, some should have The Duchess of Berry as a godmother ....maybe her first son Charles
Her son Henri has probably The count of Chambord as godfather
so the Princess of Faucigny-Lucinge should still have contacts with them at that times...
that's my hypothese