Author Topic: MA & LouisXVI's remains  (Read 43933 times)

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Offline pers

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #165 on: May 30, 2006, 07:46:39 AM »
Now I really don't want to sound disrespectful to you, but I must confess I have a VERY hard time believing this... :-?  Once the neck is severed, the person is immediately unconscious, I mean it is like breaking your neck, except it is "broken" right off!
To my knowledge only one Queen and one French princess was guillotined, namely Marie-Antoinette and Madame Elisabeth.  No one else I know of, but I stand to be corrected.

Offline Sissi

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #166 on: May 30, 2006, 09:04:15 AM »
Quote
I have read a remarkable document in the Archives Nationales in Paris that when a particular French princess was guillotined, the executioner untied the body from the plank, and the body promptly jumped up, reached into the basket, picked up the severed head and threw it at the executioner.  It then proceeded to jump up and down before finally collapsing into a heap about a minute later.  The head was laughing the entire time, before finally fading into unconsciousness.  I cannot reveal the identity of the princess, because the document  was a "restricted" item for research purposes only.



Wow!!!! :-? Is that possible!

In any case if it is true it must have been terryfying!  :o

Was it a "serious" document, yes the only queen and princess were MA and Elizabeth!


Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #167 on: May 30, 2006, 09:26:48 AM »
Quote
I have read a remarkable document in the Archives Nationales in Paris that when a particular French princess was guillotined, the executioner untied the body from the plank, and the body promptly jumped up, reached into the basket, picked up the severed head and threw it at the executioner.  It then proceeded to jump up and down before finally collapsing into a heap about a minute later.  The head was laughing the entire time, before finally fading into unconsciousness.  I cannot reveal the identity of the princess, because the document  was a "restricted" item for research purposes only.

I too would love to know the identity if the princess concerned, but respect your reasons for not divulging her name. After all she had gone through, a little bit of privacy and discretion is not much to ask for!  ;)
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #168 on: May 30, 2006, 09:29:39 AM »
Quote

Wow!!!! :-? Is that possible!

In any case if it is true it must have been terryfying!  :o

Was it a "serious" document, yes the only queen and princess were MA and Elizabeth!


There were plenty of (non-royal) princesses in eighteenth century France! One who was guillotined was the Princesse de Monaco (I'm not saying it's her though).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline pers

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #169 on: May 30, 2006, 10:57:49 AM »
I personally think it is not true.  Also the hands are tied behind the back.  I think the "source" is unreliable and that this is a send-up. ;D

Offline frohsdorf

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #170 on: June 06, 2006, 08:08:44 PM »
Yes, this was a send up.  Give me a break.  After all this talk about "headless chickens" on a royalty discussion sight......

Offline razvannicola

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #171 on: January 21, 2009, 03:43:37 PM »
I'm having a few questions-just to satisfy my own curiosity: is someone who knows any attempt to examine the royal remains of louis xvi and MA after 1815? Which were the criterias of these-let's say so - forensic examinations, in order to proove, once and for all, that these remains were undoubtfully theirs? I once read in a document about St.Denis that since 1972-there are excavations and sort of historical and archaeological research taking place over there,conducted by most renowned specialists in France,possibly due to the increase of the MA's phenomenon of rehabilitation in the common people's eyes,after the war. How the Louis XVIII's commision was fully convinced that those remains were indeed MA's remains? Is that mentioned in the commision's report that her head was indeed very well, strangely well preserved? Thank you.

Offline erzsi

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #172 on: January 22, 2009, 04:51:59 PM »
Hi,

The king and the queen were laid in single graves. One could identify MA ,with the help of her garter, also one says her head would have lain between her feet how with criminals it was then usual... Moreover, the graves on the Madleine had remained a cemetery unlooted.
The grave of both was without names, but a man knows where this graves are and he look after them.
In 1815 the King and the Queen were exhume and reburied in St. Denis at 21 January 1815.
In the MA Biografie from Antonia Fraser is one qoote, how Marie Therese (the eldest daughter of the king) came to the grave of her parents.

>>When Marie Thérése return after the restoration for the first time to France, accompanied Pauline de Tourzel, in the meantime, Comtesse de Béarn, which daughter Marie Antoinettes to the tombs of her parents. It was seven o'clock in the morning, and the Duchesse d'Angouléme carried insignificant dress as well as a veil about the hat. Both ladies were led by Pierre Louis Desclozeaux, a betagem lawyer who lived with his son-in-law in the Rue d'Anjou 48. He was able to do himself still well to both burials errinnern and had maintained gräber since that time. He reports to the "daughter of the Märtyerkönigs" that the gravediggers with the procedure of the Einsargens of her mother a break had made around her mittagessen to consume and the corpse with the head unguardedly in the grass lie leissen; thus could make the future Madame Tussaud a wax impression of the lifeless face of the queen. To tremble with the Anbick of the tombs beagnn Marie Thérése, fell on the knees and then prayed for the luck of France - a prayer that her parents had spoken very often. The statement of Desclozeaux' was of great importance when both royal Corpses should be exhumed on the 18th of January. The remains kings and the queen were laid out short time in the house in the Rue d Á njou 48, and one spoke prayers, before mans she laid in new coffins which were marked with the royal titles of her owners. On the 21st of January, 1815 a procession took place to the cathedral Sainte-Denis - there was over the 22nd anniversary of the execution Ludwigs XVI.<<
 citations: "Marie Antoinette" of lady Antonia Fraser, in 2006

Since 1815 nobody exhumed the graves of the both in my opinion.
And it's also difficult to find genetic Material today to compare with the DNA of the King and the Queen.
The only way is, take the DNA from Marie Therese and compare it with the DNA of Louis XVI and MA but the problem is, that the Government of Slowakia (who Marie Therese have her grave) not allowed to opend it.
And I'm not sure if the French Gouvernment allowed to opend the graves of the King and his family...




Offline Alexander1917

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #173 on: January 22, 2009, 05:18:54 PM »
I only know that they made some research about Louis XVII by DNA (google...)

Offline imperial angel

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #174 on: January 22, 2009, 08:14:12 PM »
I'm having a few questions-just to satisfy my own curiosity: is someone who knows any attempt to examine the royal remains of louis xvi and MA after 1815? Which were the criterias of these-let's say so - forensic examinations, in order to proove, once and for all, that these remains were undoubtfully theirs? I once read in a document about St.Denis that since 1972-there are excavations and sort of historical and archaeological research taking place over there,conducted by most renowned specialists in France,possibly due to the increase of the MA's phenomenon of rehabilitation in the common people's eyes,after the war. How the Louis XVIII's commision was fully convinced that those remains were indeed MA's remains? Is that mentioned in the commision's report that her head was indeed very well, strangely well preserved? Thank you.

Which war?

Offline razvannicola

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #175 on: January 23, 2009, 01:51:51 PM »
The last one (WW2)

Offline erzsi

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #176 on: January 23, 2009, 05:12:47 PM »
@ razvannicola I don't unterstand what is similar the world war II and the forensic examination of Louis XVI. ?

Offline razvannicola

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #177 on: January 23, 2009, 05:35:05 PM »
First:thanks for the info,erzsi. That's nothing similar between the world war 2 and the forensic examination of Louis XVI. Let's reformulate:I just wanted to say that due to the rehabilitation of their persons-Louis and MA-in the common people's eyes and the rehabilitation of the truth(books, historical researches,essays,etc.),it was necessary, in the period after WW2,some detailed research of the phenomenon.Which happened. That could possibly included some forensic reexamination of the bodies, due to the new discoveries of science and technology: X-Ray, DNA,and so on.

Offline Mari

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Offline razvannicola

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Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
« Reply #179 on: January 24, 2009, 01:33:26 PM »
Thanks a lot, Mari.