Author Topic: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna  (Read 41313 times)

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Offline ashdean

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2009, 05:59:12 AM »
It would be really interesting to see her...I wonder was she "grand" even in debt...something like Mary Adelaide von Teck?

I don't imagine her in style like Mary Adelaide who liked to be in the centre of the attention. Seemed Elena just wanted to live properly as a Romanov relative, also  Elena was not so popular in society as Duchess of Teck. The courtiers considered Elena  a false ambitious batterfly as she was always maintaining her status between her Romanov relatives.
Mary A of Teck also was a proper royal with a generous civil list allowance which should have been adequate.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2009, 07:29:40 AM »
It would be really interesting to see her...I wonder was she "grand" even in debt...something like Mary Adelaide von Teck?

I don't imagine her in style like Mary Adelaide who liked to be in the centre of the attention. Seemed Elena just wanted to live properly as a Romanov relative, also  Elena was not so popular in society as Duchess of Teck. The courtiers considered Elena  a false ambitious batterfly as she was always maintaining her status between her Romanov relatives.
Mary A of Teck also was a proper royal with a generous civil list allowance which should have been adequate.

Yes, I know. But Elena wasn't in a civil list.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2009, 08:17:36 AM »
Elena's children from Vladimir Sheremetev:




Sergei (1880-1968) and Sophia (1883-1955).

Sergei Sheremetev was a dashing officer with a long military career who went through the Russian-Japanese war, and in 1916-1917 was the Governor of Lvov. He married firstly his distant cousin Countess Alexandra Sheremeteva (1886-1945), divorced her in 1920, then he married Stella Weber. His tomb is at Testaccio cemetery in Rome.

His sister was also buried at Testaccio, she had been married to Dmitriy Den (1874-1937) who was a marine officer.

Here's a photo of Dmitriy Vladimirovitch Den as a boy




Offline Marc

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2009, 07:04:12 PM »
Thank you for your info and pictures Sveta...

Was thinking about something...she was a cousin of Romanovs...and a very close one,but just they didn't treat her as such...Am I wrong or not,but was she in similar situation like Countess Amalie von Lerchenfeld-Aldenburg who was,as I remember reading,greeted as a cousin by the Emperor...or I might be wrong?

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2009, 01:06:53 AM »

Was thinking about something...she was a cousin of Romanovs...and a very close one,but just they didn't treat her as such...Am I wrong or not,but was she in similar situation like Countess Amalie von Lerchenfeld-Aldenburg who was,as I remember reading,greeted as a cousin by the Emperor...or I might be wrong?

Do you speak about Amalie von Lerchenfeld-Krudener-ADLERBERG (1808-1888) ?? She was an illegetimate daughter of Count Maximilian-Emmanuel Lerchenfeld (1772-1809) and Princess Teresa Thurn und Taxis (1773-1839), born princess Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Right? Amalie was quite a notorious star in a European high society and a Grand Dame with a certain reputation. I think her life-story was more complicated than Elena's and she was not so close a relative of the Romanovs in fact, just a distant cousin I'd say.

But Elena was a granddaughter of famous Nicholas I, she certainly felt herself uncomfortable "being and exactly not being a Romanov" and all her life made others to remember about her ancestors..
There is an interesting source of the Russian court life of the 1880s-1890s - Journals of Alexander Polovtsov who was the State Secretary during almost all Alexander III's reign. This Polovtsov, a real snob and misantrope, who rarely said a kind word about anybody, often mentions the Sheremetevs (Elena and her husband) in acid tones -- seems he detested their tryings to be close to the Romanovs. For example Polovtsov acidly described an episode when Elena meet by chance her cousin GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna (married already the Herediraty Prince of Mecklenbourg),  talked to her, hold her arms and repeated that they resembled each other ("family resemblance")...The harsh comments of Polovtosv actually amuses me - did he really think that Elena should have went to a convent and forever shut up herself from the society becouse of her "unproper" birth? Or went to live at the end of nowhere ?  Her ambitions were quite understandable, as her parents was not able to help her yet.

Offline ashdean

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2009, 02:25:47 AM »
It would be really interesting to see her...I wonder was she "grand" even in debt...something like Mary Adelaide von Teck?

I don't imagine her in style like Mary Adelaide who liked to be in the centre of the attention. Seemed Elena just wanted to live properly as a Romanov relative, also  Elena was not so popular in society as Duchess of Teck. The courtiers considered Elena  a false ambitious batterfly as she was always maintaining her status between her Romanov relatives.
Mary A of Teck also was a proper royal with a generous civil list allowance which should have been adequate.

Yes, I know. But Elena wasn't in a civil list.
I know Elena did not have a civil list..that was part of the point I was making.

Offline Marc

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2009, 04:33:59 AM »

Was thinking about something...she was a cousin of Romanovs...and a very close one,but just they didn't treat her as such...Am I wrong or not,but was she in similar situation like Countess Amalie von Lerchenfeld-Aldenburg who was,as I remember reading,greeted as a cousin by the Emperor...or I might be wrong?

Do you speak about Amalie von Lerchenfeld-Krudener-ADLERBERG (1808-1888) ?? She was an illegetimate daughter of Count Maximilian-Emmanuel Lerchenfeld (1772-1809) and Princess Teresa Thurn und Taxis (1773-1839), born princess Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Right? Amalie was quite a notorious star in a European high society and a Grand Dame with a certain reputation. I think her life-story was more complicated than Elena's and she was not so close a relative of the Romanovs in fact, just a distant cousin I'd say.

But Elena was a granddaughter of famous Nicholas I, she certainly felt herself uncomfortable "being and exactly not being a Romanov" and all her life made others to remember about her ancestors..
There is an interesting source of the Russian court life of the 1880s-1890s - Journals of Alexander Polovtsov who was the State Secretary during almost all Alexander III's reign. This Polovtsov, a real snob and misantrope, who rarely said a kind word about anybody, often mentions the Sheremetevs (Elena and her husband) in acid tones -- seems he detested their tryings to be close to the Romanovs. For example Polovtsov acidly described an episode when Elena meet by chance her cousin GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna (married already the Herediraty Prince of Mecklenbourg),  talked to her, hold her arms and repeated that they resembled each other ("family resemblance")...The harsh comments of Polovtosv actually amuses me - did he really think that Elena should have went to a convent and forever shut up herself from the society becouse of her "unproper" birth? Or went to live at the end of nowhere ?  Her ambitions were quite understandable, as her parents was not able to help her yet.


Yes,I know that Amalie was a distant relative,that's why I said that it was strange that she was accepted in some way...presented a fur coat by the Emperor and treated as a "relative"...in some way Mathilde Demidov di San Donato was treated when in Russia,as a cousin...I tried to make some comparation with others whose marriages were not truly royal,but rather noble...Elena Stroganoff was a proper cousin,yet without a title by birth or by marriage so maybe that's why they treated her like that...she had so many cousins,just don't know why anyone didn't have any feelings for her except Princess Eugenia who was her half-sister...?

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2009, 06:38:53 AM »

Was thinking about something...she was a cousin of Romanovs...and a very close one,but just they didn't treat her as such...Am I wrong or not,but was she in similar situation like Countess Amalie von Lerchenfeld-Aldenburg who was,as I remember reading,greeted as a cousin by the Emperor...or I might be wrong?

Do you speak about Amalie von Lerchenfeld-Krudener-ADLERBERG (1808-1888) ?? She was an illegetimate daughter of Count Maximilian-Emmanuel Lerchenfeld (1772-1809) and Princess Teresa Thurn und Taxis (1773-1839), born princess Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Right? Amalie was quite a notorious star in a European high society and a Grand Dame with a certain reputation. I think her life-story was more complicated than Elena's and she was not so close a relative of the Romanovs in fact, just a distant cousin I'd say.

But Elena was a granddaughter of famous Nicholas I, she certainly felt herself uncomfortable "being and exactly not being a Romanov" and all her life made others to remember about her ancestors..
There is an interesting source of the Russian court life of the 1880s-1890s - Journals of Alexander Polovtsov who was the State Secretary during almost all Alexander III's reign. This Polovtsov, a real snob and misantrope, who rarely said a kind word about anybody, often mentions the Sheremetevs (Elena and her husband) in acid tones -- seems he detested their tryings to be close to the Romanovs. For example Polovtsov acidly described an episode when Elena meet by chance her cousin GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna (married already the Herediraty Prince of Mecklenbourg),  talked to her, hold her arms and repeated that they resembled each other ("family resemblance")...The harsh comments of Polovtosv actually amuses me - did he really think that Elena should have went to a convent and forever shut up herself from the society becouse of her "unproper" birth? Or went to live at the end of nowhere ?  Her ambitions were quite understandable, as her parents was not able to help her yet.


Yes,I know that Amalie was a distant relative,that's why I said that it was strange that she was accepted in some way...presented a fur coat by the Emperor and treated as a "relative"...in some way Mathilde Demidov di San Donato was treated when in Russia,as a cousin...I tried to make some comparation with others whose marriages were not truly royal,but rather noble...Elena Stroganoff was a proper cousin,yet without a title by birth or by marriage so maybe that's why they treated her like that...she had so many cousins,just don't know why anyone didn't have any feelings for her except Princess Eugenia who was her half-sister...?

Possibly Elena was somewhat a "shame" for the Romanovs due to the SECRET marriage of her parents...in comparison Mathilde di San Donato was married legally and to a very rich man - also the Emperor simply sympathyzed with her problem life. Amalie Adlerberg was an illegetimate offspring. led a fast life, but married properly and was a bright and unconventional woman...Elena was another sort of woman, also she definitely had a complex of her "unproper" birth and wasn't able to present herself in a such right way that others would have shut their mouths in spreading rumours about her existence. Moreover she married into the poor branch of the famous Sheremetev's clan - I don't know for sure  but seemed she married for love.

As for Duchess Evgenia of Oldenburg who gave money to Elena - My guess that she was the one who agree to help Elena probably after the request of her mother, GDss Maria Nikolayevna. Evgenia didn't marry abroad (as her sister Maria of Baden), had a good fortune and only one child, and  lived in Russia - so why not to help her half-sister? Evgenia was the most good-settled child of GDss Maria N. - her brothers led complicated lives if we can say so. The eldest - Nikolay - married morganatically and left Russia, Sergei was killed in 1877, Evgeniy (husband of famous Zenaida of Leuchtenberg, lover of GD Alexei Alexandrovicth) and Georgiy themselves were twisting around the Imperial throne to get the favor of the Emperor (btw, Georgiy all his life was trying to disperse the rumours that his was not a son of Duke Max).
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 06:49:36 AM by Svetabel »

Offline Marc

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2009, 07:48:41 AM »
Ok,so her out of favor was so and so because of her birth,but more because of her character...if she was not so eager in everything maybe they would respect her more...or not?Did her parents left her anything?Did she get a good dowry?

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2009, 01:32:46 AM »
Ok,so her out of favor was so and so because of her birth,but more because of her character...if she was not so eager in everything maybe they would respect her more...or not?Did her parents left her anything?Did she get a good dowry?

Her parents, esp. GDss Maria N. did leave a fortune for Elena, and she of course had a good dowry (can't say exactly the sum). But her husband Vladimir Sheremetev definitely wasn't able to save money and rapidly burnt a hole in their pockets. In 1885 the fortune of the Sheremetevs had been melt thanks to their way of life. They even had plans to left for Moscow for more cheap existence. Duchess Evgenia of Oldenburg gave them 2 thousands rubles monthly (it's hard to exchange the sum into our modern currencies) just to live more or less properly and bring up the children.
 
Actually if I got right the sources Vladimir Sheremetev played the main tune in Elena's relations to the Romanovs - he was proud of  "the connect" through his wife to the Imperial Family and maintained "the course" of Elena as a Romanov offspring. Sheremetev itslef, as the contemporaries said, was a vain and narrow-minded person so the result was that he and his wife were not in a high respect in the society and among the Romanovs.
Elena itself also wasn't a brilliant or sophisticated person to attract the attention or universal  love (GD KR had a platonic crush on her though). She in fact was at the Empress MF's side very often, and even went with the Imperial Family to their annual visits to Finland on board of "Tsarevna", but seemed Elena nonetheless was treated like a very noble lady-in-waiting. Probably if she was married to another- more noble and rich man without fool ambitions - she would have been respected more.

Offline Marc

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2009, 06:56:25 AM »
So,that's true what I thought...I get a bit confused...in genealogy site she is listed as Countess Marie Helene Strogonoff and yet her husband was listed without the title which he of course didn't have,so was her father a count or not?

One more interesting thing is that her descendant Sergei Vladimirovitch married Countess Alexandra Alexandrovna Sheremeteva,so obviously a member of another rich and titled branch of the same family...did he gain some fortune with this marriage?

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2009, 01:41:39 AM »
So,that's true what I thought...I get a bit confused...in genealogy site she is listed as Countess Marie Helene Strogonoff and yet her husband was listed without the title which he of course didn't have,so was her father a count or not?

One more interesting thing is that her descendant Sergei Vladimirovitch married Countess Alexandra Alexandrovna Sheremeteva,so obviously a member of another rich and titled branch of the same family...did he gain some fortune with this marriage?

Elena was born Countess Elena Grigorievna Stroganova (no Marie Helene, she was an Orthodox, so only one first name) and married to an untitled Sheremetev (from the other, poor branch of the famous family). The Stroganovs were indeed rich, Elena's father owned a factory in the Ural region but seemed was only wealthy.

Sergei Sheremetev, Elena's son, married firstly his distant cousin Countess Alexandra Alexandrovna Sheremeteva, daughter of the famous mecenat Count Alexander Dmitrievitch Sheremetev. Probably Sergei wanted to play a more weighty part at the society and chose the daughter of such respected and rich (of course!) person as Count Sheremetev. Obviously the dowry of Alexandra was very attractive : )

Here's the Sheremetevs - the whole family of Count Alexander including his daughter Alexandra and her spouse Sergei Sheremetev:





« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 01:43:45 AM by Svetabel »

Offline Marc

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2009, 07:24:54 AM »
Thank you Svetabel...great picture of them...so,at her birth Elena was a countess and was rather well off...what happened later to this fabric and everything?Her husband or it is just her to blame...?

Countess Alexandra Alexandrovna Sheremeteva must have had a good dowry,but I wonder what did he have...I don't think her father would let her marrying Sergei Vladimirovitch even if he is from the same family(distant cousin) and Imperial family descendant if he didn't have any money...or he would?

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2009, 01:39:56 AM »
Thank you Svetabel...great picture of them...so,at her birth Elena was a countess and was rather well off...what happened later to this fabric and everything?Her husband or it is just her to blame...?

Countess Alexandra Alexandrovna Sheremeteva must have had a good dowry,but I wonder what did he have...I don't think her father would let her marrying Sergei Vladimirovitch even if he is from the same family(distant cousin) and Imperial family descendant if he didn't have any money...or he would?

I didn't find out what exactly happened to the factory of her father, but her mother gave Elena Villa Quarto in Italy where they had been living almost all 1860-1870s years. Obviously  Elena sold this Villa...The other fortune Elena and her husband definitely let go down the wind.

I agree that Alexandra's father would not have been pleased with such a son-in-law, but who knows - possibly Alexandra fell in love with Sergei and wanted only him...If I find any extra info on the subject I post it ; )
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:42:03 AM by Svetabel »

Offline Marc

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Re: Elena Stroganova-Sheremeteva, daughter of GDss Maria Nikolayevna
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2009, 04:27:42 AM »
Please do,I would like to know even more about this family...