Author Topic: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof  (Read 107233 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Architecture_Nut

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« on: March 08, 2006, 10:43:49 PM »
Does anyone have images of Tsarskoe Tselo immediately after German occupation in the Second World War? I am very interested in architectural preservation, and I was stunned when I read that the palaces were heavily damaged in the war.  I understand that the palaces were left in a poor state, yet I have never seen pics of them damaged.  Any photos or information would really be appreciated! Thank you for your time.

-Steve

Offline Ortino

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
  • Ortino
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2006, 02:39:03 PM »
Quote
Does anyone have images of Tsarskoe Tselo immediately after German occupation in the Second World War? I am very interested in architectural preservation, and I was stunned when I read that the palaces were heavily damaged in the war.  I understand that the palaces were left in a poor state, yet I have never seen pics of them damaged.  Any photos or information would really be appreciated! Thank you for your time.

-Steve


The Catherine Palace was completely gutted by the Germans and suffered greatly from a fire that took place when the Germans were retreating. The Alexander Palace was also stripped of much of its interior decoration (particularly,from what I remember, by Germans searching for jewelry and hidden treasures) and several smaller rooms were eliminated, like the Empress' dressing room and bathroom. These sad facts would explain its present configuration and condition.

Here are some pictures of the condition of the Catherine Palace post World War II:



http://www.exmsft.com/~davidco/Travel/Russia/pages/p3c5%20oof%20selo%20back%20x5%20IMG_7907%20restore%20IMG_7812%20fixed.htm
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Ortino »

Offline Architecture_Nut

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2006, 07:55:58 PM »
Thanks! My god that last pic (with the link) is terrible to look at.  I'm a bit confused though... today, are the unrestored rooms in the palace just brick shells?

Offline Ortino

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
  • Ortino
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2006, 10:54:23 PM »
Quote
Thanks! My god that last pic (with the link) is terrible to look at.  I'm a bit confused though... today, are the unrestored rooms in the palace just brick shells?


The outside of the Catherine Palace has been restored to resemble its original state and I'm sure that the currently unrestored rooms inside are either blank, white rooms or perhaps have fragments of original decoration--with such extensive damage, I'm sure they would have little if anything to work with.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Ortino »

Offline RogerV

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2006, 04:47:06 PM »
German forces invading Russia during World War II had orders to destroy anything they could find that had to do with Russian culture or history.  Conseqently, much of the damage to the palaces and other structures was intentional.  A great many valuables were evacuated before the Germans arrived, but much had to be left behind.

Probably the best description of how what appeared to be hopeless destruction was in fact restored can be found in Suzanne Massie's Pavlovsk: The Life of a Russian Palace.  Pavlovosk was the first palace to be restored, and the methods learned in the process have been applied to many other restorations.

The book also recounts the life of a heroic Russian woman who survived the seige of Leningrad and went on to lead the restoration process.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2006, 04:53:32 PM by RogerV »

Offline BobAtchison

  • Moderator
  • Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 896
    • View Profile
    • The Alexander Palace
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2006, 12:08:13 AM »
I just got an original German picture of Livadia during the war.  It's a view from the hill so you can see everything.  I'll put it up next week.

Bob

Offline Joanna

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1180
  • Winter Palace Research
    • View Profile
    • Winter Palace Research
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 11:42:18 AM »
Photograph of Peterhof c1941:
http://www.peter-engelhardt.com/wolchow/htm/wolchow3.html

Can anyone identify the building?

Another of Catherine Palace by the same photographer c1941-44:
http://www.peter-engelhardt.com/wolchow/htm/wolchow73.html

Joanna


Offline Valmont

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
  • I love History  !!
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2008, 01:31:13 PM »

The caption of the photo in the last link reads "The Catharine Palace in Tsarkoe Selo before the destruction by Soviet Artillery"... I thought that only the germans had done damage to the palaces, but it makes sense to me that the Russians, who did not care for anything related to the IF, plus the fact the germans were there, also did some damage to the palaces...

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Arturo Vega-Llausás

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 02:43:37 PM »
If that was so, Valomnt, why did the Soviets  spend to much effort to preserve the Imperial Heritage as part of the country's  patrimony and so much time, scarce money and effort to restore the palaces after the war destruction? Even the Siege of Leningrad Memorial  came way after those tasks were accomplished.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Michael HR

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
  • Imperial Corps Des Pages
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2008, 06:08:21 AM »
I agree with Robert. The Soviets did much to preserve rather than distroy. Without them there would perhaps be almost nothing left now for us to see. They rebuilt Pavlosk and the Catherine Place ands no doubt much more. Odd as it may seem we owe then a thank you
Remembering the Imperial Corps Des Pages - The Spirit of Imperial Russia


Offline Cathy

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 148
  • Without books, history is silent.
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2008, 06:31:44 AM »
It is absolutely impossible to describe the devastation to the palaces and park surrounding Leningrad during the war. A few pictures will not be enough also. The palaces (except Oranienbaum) were completely destroyed (during the occupation the Germans used most rooms a toilets, most walls for target practice and even boarded their horses. As they retreated they bombed and burned everything in site). All the park statues were destroyed. The parks themselves were mined. The towns were destroyed. Not many people remained and those that did were home less. In Pavlovsk for example only one house in the town remained standing.

The Russian artillery had to fire on their own palaces and towns in order to defeat the Germans (it broke their hearts to do so).

If it had not been for the foresight of the Russian people to hide what they could and to transport out of Leningrad and the surrounding areas as much of their historical treasures as was humanly possible, there would be nothing left today.

If it had not been for the courage and pride of the Russian people to go out everyday to clean up after the destruction, there would be nothing left today. Women, voluntarily, would walk the park grounds to find the mines - at least one died every day in the grounds of Pavlovsk. And they cleared rubble from the Catherine Palace, the AP, Peterhof, Pavlovsk and many more every day for years saving anything that could be restored and anything that could be used as an example to create a new copy.

If it had not been for the many many Russian people who learned the restoration techniques of the old masters and then dedicated their whole lives to the painstakingly restoration work, there would be nothing left today.

A very good book to read is "Saving The Tsars' Palaces" by Christopher Morgan and Irina Orlova, 2005.

My heroes are Anna Zelenova and Anatoli Kuchumov but there are thousands more, even today.


Offline Michael HR

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
  • Imperial Corps Des Pages
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2008, 06:49:56 AM »
That was beautifully said if I may say so
Remembering the Imperial Corps Des Pages - The Spirit of Imperial Russia


Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2008, 08:36:04 AM »
Excellent book, Cathy. I have been suggesting it to anyone interested in the subject since I read it 3 years ago. The restorations & recreations are nothing less than miraculous. Gatchina & Oranienbaum  need work and progress has been slow, but is picking up now. Many of the park statues were actually buried, if they could not be moved.  It is a testament to the people of Leningrad that they so much effort whilst undergoing the siege.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.


Offline pastpalacelife

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 187
    • View Profile
Re: War Damage of Tsarskoe Selo and Peterhof
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2008, 05:01:53 PM »
Does anyone know if any pictures exist of the Gestapo inside the palace?  Also I've wondered if Lenin ever looked around inside Alexander Palace.