Author Topic: James IV and Perkin Warbeck  (Read 3465 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

palatine

  • Guest
James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« on: March 18, 2006, 10:21:17 AM »
When Perkin Warbeck came forward with claims that he was in fact Richard, the Duke of York, one of his most prominent backers was James IV of Scotland.  In addition to recognizing him as Richard, James backed Perkin’s claims financially and with troops.  He went above and beyond by arranging a marriage for Perkin with his cousin, Lady Catherine Gordon.  It's understandable why James backed Perkin's claims against Henry VII, but its less understandable why he provided a bride of royal birth for him, which tied Perkin to his own family.

Did James arrange the marriage for the sheer joy of freaking out Henry, or did he sincerely believe that Perkin was Richard?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by palatine »

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6571
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2006, 10:43:40 AM »
I'd place my bet on joy of freaking out Henry, to be honest. Just how royal was Catherine Gordon? The closest royal connection I can find is descent from Robert II, and that's 7 generations back!
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

palatine

  • Guest
Re: James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2006, 11:18:36 AM »
I'm rather puzzled about how she was related to James too, although it's certain that she was acknowledged as both his kinswoman and his cousin.  According to a few websites, Catherine's maternal grandparents were James I of Scotland and Joan Beaufort, which would have made her a cousin of sorts to both Henry and James.  According to other websites, Joan Beaufort was not her maternal grandmother and she was instead descended from the Hay family.  

On her father's side, she was a member of the extended Stuart family, and a descendant of Alexander I of Scotland,  which is a long way to go back to find royal blood.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by palatine »

Offline bell_the_cat

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1678
  • I am he, who will bell the cat
    • View Profile
Re: James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2006, 01:01:03 PM »
Quote
I'm rather puzzled about how she was related to James too, although it's certain that she was acknowledged as both his kinswoman and his cousin.  According to a few websites, Catherine's maternal grandparents were James I of Scotland and Joan Beaufort, which would have made her a cousin of sorts to both Henry and James.  According to other websites, Joan Beaufort was not her maternal grandmother and she was instead descended from the Hay family.  

On her father's side, she was a member of the extended Stuart family, and a descendant of Alexander I of Scotland,  which is a long way to go back to find royal blood.


Hi Guys!

Lady Catherine was the daughter of George Gordon, the 2nd Earl of Huntly and his wife, Princess Annabella the daughter of King James I of Scotland and Joan Beaufort. So her mother was first cousin to James' father.

Amended: she seems to have been the daughter of Huntly's third wife Elizabeth Hay!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6571
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2006, 01:03:51 PM »
What's your source Bell? I know a website that says she was the daughter of George Gordon and Elizabeth Hay. George had been married to Anabella, and had several children with her, but Catherine was his daughter with Elizabeth.

Hurrah, my 6000th post.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Prince_Lieven »
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline bell_the_cat

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1678
  • I am he, who will bell the cat
    • View Profile
Re: James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2006, 01:05:19 PM »
Yes I've posted too soon again!   :-[

But congratulations on the 6000!

Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline bell_the_cat

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1678
  • I am he, who will bell the cat
    • View Profile
Re: James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2006, 01:07:55 PM »
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6571
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2006, 01:19:05 PM »
Quote
Yes I've posted too soon again!   :-[

But congratulations on the 6000!



Thank you.  :)
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=10008

Also, Weir's book does not list Catherine as one of Anabella's children. Maybe, because she was the half-sister of James IV's actual cousins, Anabella's kids, she was just lumped in with them.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

Offline bell_the_cat

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1678
  • I am he, who will bell the cat
    • View Profile
Re: James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2006, 01:33:04 PM »
Quote

Thank you.  :)
http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=en;i=10008

Also, Weir's book does not list Catherine as one of Anabella's children. Maybe, because she was the half-sister of James IV's actual cousins, Anabella's kids, she was just lumped in with them.


Yes that makes sense. Surely that shows that James didn't think he was worth wasting a full royal on!

Still, it was quite a good marriage for old Perkin. If I'd been James, I'd have tried to marry him to a descendant of Joan Beauforts by her second marriage. this would have tied him to Henry's family and still not messed up the Stewart family tree.
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6571
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: James IV and Perkin Warbeck
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2006, 02:18:45 PM »
Good policy! I tried to look up some of Joan's descendants from her second marriage, but can't find brithdates for any of them so I don't know if they'd be a good match for Perkin.  ;)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."