Author Topic: Sokolov Report  (Read 12105 times)

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Offline AGRBear

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Sokolov Report
« on: March 20, 2006, 10:12:27 AM »
Sokolov's Report should be discussed since so many posters heavily depend upon what he wrote and collected about the execution of Nicholas II, Alexandra, the four Grand Duchesses, Alexis, and the others on the night of 16/17 July 1918.

Over on another thread I asked about something one of the red guards Strekotin told Sokolov.  There was some discussion but no real answers on that particular subject.

The following is what Phil T.  posted afterwards:

Quote
One day I'll get the hang of this.  In the meantime a quote:

"The Sokolov report got the essential facts correct, that on the night of July 16/17, 1918, those in charge of guarding the Imperial Family murdered them, probably on the orders of the Ural Regional Soviet. On many other points, the report has its facts wrong. Most of its errors are in the forensics area. For example, they characterized blood found in the murder room as "grand duchess' blood" when in fact no tests were done to even estabilish it was blood, let alone human, let alone belonging to a grand duchess. These factual errors do not take away from the essential truths found in the report."

I hate to be pedantic (in fact I LOVE to be pedantic) but if so many points of detail are incorrect, how can we be sure that the overall thrust of the argument in Sokolov's report is correct?  The "essential facts" are actually drived from the Sokolov Report so you are trying to check it against itself!!!  Try checking out the Rasputin thread to see how, for nearly 90 years, the standard story has dropped to bits with the aid of some rather expert forensic analysis.

Phil Tomaselli


Quote

Phil - why not start a thread on the Sokolov Report? It would be very interesting for all of us.

Of course I check out as much of the Forum as I can given that I'm a moderator.  :D

To answer your question in brief, we can be more certain about some of the facts in Sokolov (and Yurovsky for that matter) if they are corroborated in some way, either by forensic evidence or by other sources.



So,  I thought,  there is a thread about the investigators but Sokolov probably should have his own thread.

So, here it is.

Where would you like to start?

How about something that's no longer in dispute.  The finding of the dog Jemmy found on the bottom of the mine known as the Fourt Brothers on 25 June 1919.

Sokolov published a photograph of the dog's remains.  

Sokolov believed Jemmy died the night of the execution 16/17 July 1918.

Summers and Mangold in their boook THE FILE ON THE TSAR pps. 141 [photo] and 161-2 talk about the facts of a dog being in this particular mine shaft for 11 months.   Due to the changes of temperature between two summers and a winter,  their experts believed the remains of Jemmy would not have looked like the one in the photo but would have decomposed a great deal.

It is, now, believed that the dog Jemmy was killed had been placed in the mine just a few days and less than a week before 25 June of 1919.

General Domontovich, White governor of Ekateriinburg, was in charge of the mine operation.

It would be easy to assume the Whites planted the dog in the mine since I assume the Whites were still guarding this area.  But I don't have evidence they did or that Sokolov knew about this plantin of false evidence if the White had planted the dog's body.

Would there be a reason for the Reds to plant the dog's body at that time?  

Do any of you have added information since Summers and Mangold book was published some time ago, 1976

When I get a chance, I'll copy the photo of Jemmy for you.

 

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2006, 11:22:14 AM »


Said to be Jemmy's Corpse

I dont have Sokolov's book.  I do, however, have John F. O'Conor's translation and Commentary in his book THE SOKOLOV INVESTIGATION which was published in 1971.

In O'Conor's introduction p. 1 he writes:

>>The purpose of the Commentary, on the other hand, is to call attention to the weakness of that evidence and to call the reader's attention to conflicting evidence described in Sokolov's account and in the accounts of other persons closely connected with the investigation of the Imperial Family's disappearance.  Although the authors of these accounts reach similar conclusions, their explanations, and even the evidence described, are frequently contradictory--in some cases self-contradictory.<<

What does O'Conor tell us about Sokolov's conclusions?  Here is an example of O'Conor's critical views on two bullet holes in the floor of the Ipatiev House on p. 21:

>>"There is a picture presented, Photograph No. 51, of two bullet marks in the floor which are describe as having been made by the bullets which kiled the Tsarevich.  But nowhere in the test of Sokolov's account, or in accounts of the other writers, is their the slightest hint of how these two bullet marks, out of the great number described, were connected with the T

sarevich.  The asssertions is completely unsupported and one is forced to conclude either that important evidence was suppressed or that great liberties were taken in its interpretation."<<

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2006, 11:26:49 AM »
What astonishes me about Sokolov, given that he was so desperate to prove that the entire imperial family had been killed with Nicholas, was that he never discovered the location of the mass grave in Pig's Meadow. He knew there was activity there between July 17 and 19, 1918, he knew the Bolsheviks' truck had gotten stuck there twice and railroad ties laid down, he even had a photograph taken of the actual site of the mass grave, a photograph which appears in his published report. So why didn't he think to dig in this site? Why did he become so fixated on the Four Brothers, to the extent of even possibly planting evidence there (the dog Jemmy's corpse)? It makes no sense to me.  
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Offline bernard_timbal

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2006, 04:16:50 PM »
Quote
he even had a photograph taken of the actual site of the mass grave, a photograph which appears in his published report. So why didn't he think to dig in this site? Why did he become so fixated on the Four Brothers, to the extent of even possibly planting evidence there


Yes, it's incredible he has been photographied on the site where the romanov body will be found some years later ! Maybe, as chretian, he couldn't imagine people were able to burry the way they did the Romanov. it was only the beginning of sovietic atrocity...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bernard_timbal »

Offline Belochka

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2006, 05:48:50 PM »
Quote

Yes, it's incredible he has been photographied on the site where the romanov body will be found some years later ! Maybe, as chretian, he couldn't imagine people were able to burry the way they did the Romanov. it was only the beginning of sovietic atrocity...


That crime was not the beginning of soviet atrocities.

The soviets were on a seek and destroy mission since 1917, where multitudes of noble and good Russian citizens were murdered, displaced or terrorized into political submission.
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2006, 10:07:06 PM »
Belochka,

I followed the link to the SEARCH site, and was engrossed by it. Congratulations upon the high caliber of the work, and the overall appearance of the website.

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Offline Belochka

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2006, 10:51:22 PM »
Thank you Simon,  
 
You are very kind. All the real hard work was achieved by Peter and members of the SEARCH team before I was invited to participate.  
 
The site is still under construction and will offer much more soon in both English and Russian.  
 
Best regards,  
 
Margarita    
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2006, 10:38:45 AM »
Quote

Yes, it's incredible he has been photographied on the site where the romanov body will be found some years later ! Maybe, as chretian, he couldn't imagine people were able to burry the way they did the Romanov. it was only the beginning of sovietic atrocity...



Everyone (the early investigators to Sokolov) should have been able to tell that this railroad tie bridge was new.

A few knocks on the same door of the shed/house where the man in charge of the ties whom the Reds must have talked to when they got them that night would have established the fact that the ties were placed there on or about the  17th and 18th, the night of the IF disapearance.  And,  this was the road to the Four Brother's Mine where the bodies were not found.

So,  anyone know what Sokolov said about the railroad ties and what does anyone have a copy of his photo/photos taken of the railroad ties bridge?

Meanwhile,  I go get my O'Conor book and see what he writes.

I just can't imagine this kind of carelessness in this kind of investigation by the last couple of men in charge since it was by then established that the bodies were not in the mine shaft/shafts as earlier believed.

There is an answer  but what could it be?

I am sorry but telling me that you think the railroad tie bridge was too obvious doesn't make sense either, as far as I'm concern.  Good investigators are suppose to have my kind of inquistitive mind that thinks of all angles even those past the "Stop!  Do Not Trespass" sign.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2006, 12:55:45 PM »


Railway Tides Bridge on Koptyaki Road

AGRBear
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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2006, 01:50:41 PM »
There is some discussion about Sokolov's report and what he tells us about Yakov Yurovsky.  So,  I'm placing a quote here for those who are interested in what else is being said:

Quote
Sokolov writes the following on the subject, and he was of course in first hand position to see the documents in question,as well as having interrogated Yurovsky himself: (my translation from the French edition of his "Report")

"The Jew Jacob Mikhailovich Yurovsky was born in 1878. Clockmaker by profession and photographer..."(Sokolov then states the took depositions of his mother Esther Moisseiva Yurovskaya, and his brothers Eli Meyer, and Leyba Yurovsky)(I can attest, as a Jew that these are VERY typical Jewish names for the region and period).

"Jacob Yurovsky's grandfather lived in the Poltava Government, his son Chaim, Jacob's father, had earlier been convicted for carrying a loaded firearm and sentenced to permanent exile in Siberia. ... According to the birth certificate written by the Rabbi of Tomsk on May 23 1905 and given to me by Layba Yurovsky, Chaim Yurovsky was entered into the society of the Bourgeois in Kainsk, Siberia.

"Jacob, according to the depositions of his mother and brothers, entered into the Jewish School "Talmateyro" in Tomsk, which was next to the Synagogue.  He did not do well in school and was apprenticed to the Jewish clockmaker Perman, in Tomsk." ... "In 1905, for an unknown reason, he left for abroad, and lived for a year in Berlin.  There he abandoned the faith of his fathers and became a Lutheran." pp. 174-175 "Enquete Judiciare sur l'Assassinat..."
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Rodney_G.

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2007, 06:40:46 PM »


AGRBear,
   

  You make some interesting points. But, to clarify, was that highlighted quote your own or someone else's? Because it says "my trans lation from the French" and I thought you only read Johm O'Conor's translation and commentary. As you know, O'Conor left out about fifteen chapters from Sokolov's 1924 original.

But mainly, if I'm not Grossly mistaken, Sokolov never had Yurovsky in custody. He was long gone and not about to turn himself in for arrest and execution (if not torture). If Sokolov did have Yurovsky in his hands, and let him walk away, his own life might have been in doubt.
I don't want to blame you if those are not your quotes; otherwise what's up?

Also, I hope this thread can be revived.
Rodney G.

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2007, 09:24:16 PM »
I would hazard a guess that the quote is from a post by Rob (FA). He's translated a number of documents from French for the APTM and forums.



EDIT: It just occurred to me to do a search on one of the phrases from the quote -- it was indeed originally posted by Rob.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 09:26:16 PM by Sarushka »
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Offline Rodney_G.

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2007, 05:50:48 PM »
  Thanks, Sarushka, I could never have traced those quotes.

  About Jemmi's corpse. i don't think there's reason for speculation. She was killed with the Romanovs by a blow from a rifle butt. That's why she wasn't barking on the trip to the burial site. Her corpse was thrown in the mine, and covered by a false bottom. Nametkin's search was superficial and didn't find it. Sergeyev didn't search there at all. Sokolov's thorough searches found her body June 25,1919. His picture indicates a body pretty far gone.

The Reds didn't "plant" her body They just threw it in the mine. They did it July 17-18 while they were there.
The Whites didn't "plant' it either. They didn't have it then, or ever, until they found it. What would be the point of "planting' the corpse after July25,1918 or in 1919 duiring Sokolov's  searches? Finding it doesn't suggest (falsely) that the Romanovs survived. The Bolsheviks didn't want the crime or the bodies discovered  but they had no reason to care about Jemmi's corpse either way.
Rodney G.

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2007, 06:18:08 PM »
Yes, Rodney, that was my translation from the original French edition of Sokolov. Not only did O'Conor leave out a lot of material, his translation is not very accurate either. He makes MANY assumptions of his own in translation.  Just one example is his translation of "chemise" as corset, which gave rise to the myth that the GDs hid the diamonds in their corsets, which is, of course, not the case.

Rob

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Re: Sokolov Report
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2007, 11:44:53 AM »
I remember reading through The Last Diary of Tsaritsa Alexandra, and coming across dozens of footnotes and quotes that had actually dispelled Sokolov as a joke, and also the fact that he was also working for the Bolsheviks while conducting his research and his inevitable, infamous report.
This book actually had some real scary pieces of information that was new to me when I first read it.  Though I highly recommend it to those who haven't picked it up...I'm a little concerned because these diaries have been kept in Soviet archives since 1918 and knowing the fear of imperial history that the Soviet government had until its demise, I'm still cautious to the radical idea that the Soviets might have tampered with them, but its unlikely either way.