Author Topic: Why we must believe the official history?  (Read 31604 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yseult

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 867
  • I Love YaBB 2!
    • View Profile
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2006, 05:36:23 PM »
I always wondered why there are a lot of people who wants or need to believe that some of them survived. I can understand that in the 1920´s decade a lot of people wanted or needed to believe this, because they were so attached to all of them and it is not easy to carry on with the knowledge of the dreadful end of their loved ones. But times go by, and, now, I think that we can assume Nicky, Alicky, the children and a few loyal servants found death in the cellar of Ipatiev.

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2006, 05:41:22 PM »
Quote
Yurovsky claimed the two bodies were buried "near" the mass grave.

No one has found the remains of a Grand Duchess and Alexis.

So,  my question has been:  Why would Yurovsky tell the truth about the mass grave which held nine bodies and not tell the truth about the two missing bodies?


AGRBear

PROVE that he did not tell the truth about the two missing bodies.

Offline elfwine

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2006, 07:34:00 PM »
Quote
Quote
Yurovsky claimed the two bodies were buried "near" the mass grave.

No one has found the remains of a Grand Duchess and Alexis.

So,  my question has been:  Why would Yurovsky tell the truth about the mass grave which held nine bodies and not tell the truth about the two missing bodies?


AGRBear

PROVE that he did not tell the truth about the two missing bodies.

Oh --- My lack of G#d!
I agree with the FA!

Brilliant!


Runes shall ye know and righly read staves
Very great staves.
Powerful staves.

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2006, 11:23:38 PM »
Quote
[size=12]
Sorry if that annoys you, but I just don't see some "hero Bolshevik" risking his life to snatch even ONE badly wounded grand duchess (not to even discuss Alexei) off the truck in the forest, and go the the impossible steps of treating, healing, caring for, clothing, feeding, sheltering, hiding, transporting, rescuing, etc etc etc ad nauseum as being remotely making sense. It's just TOO complicated and relies on TOO many tenuous assumptions. period.
[/size]
[/font]

Comrade lenin was informed that the deed was committed. That single factor must be considered to be the truth that ALL the I. F. were murdered. Lenin within moments moved on to other issues after he was duly advised. This issue was concluded. Nothing more was left to consider.

I wholeheartedly agree with FA's assessment. The logistics for long-term care, and safely hiding any person from further harm, especially one considered to be an "enemy of the soviets" would have hindered such an eventuality from occuring.

Equally, the alleged survivor's capability to divulge the truth as to what transpired that night, and importantly, to be able to identify any of the murders would have been critical considerations in ensuring that ALL were silenced forever.

Furthermore, sympathy for any alleged child "survivor" would have aroused dissent against soviet authority.

Why were no alleged imperial survivors brought to the attention of Kolchak's White Army to ensure their safety and survivability?

Silence, lies, tales of escape or the claim of Nikolai II regicide alone; each served their political purpose in order to gain time. Why? This disinformation assisted in obscuring the real truth as to how ruthless the soviet masters were, and also ensured the survivability of the murderers and their associates who assisted in disposing all the bodies.

Rather than proclaim they had committed such an act for the "cause", instead, they had not just buried, but they attempted to burn and destroy their corpses in order to destroy the forensic evidence of their criminality. That lengthy process was to ensure that no one would learn at the time what they did.  

Those in the Ipatiev House were cold blooded murders ... they were hired to kill for rubles. Shooting was not enough, so out came the bayonets to ensure finality.  

To believe that any one of them would compromise himself among his comrades and superiors proximate to the crime scene can not be supported by "what ifs" and "may by" ...  That is the stuff of legends and myths that refuse to fade with the passage of time and logic.

Those who prefer to believe otherwise continue to proffer stale legends. It is time to close those nauseous books and examine more scholastic contributions to Russian history.


[size=14][ch1041][ch1077][ch1083][ch1086][ch1095][ch1082][ch1072][/size]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2006, 10:10:56 AM »
 So, where are the two bodies, if Yurovsky is telling us the truth and nothing but the truth?  

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2006, 10:20:43 AM »
Not found yet? He apparently was telling the truth about other events that night, but the forensic evidence didn't appear for over sixty years. If we are to judge his "truthfulness" in this matter, the fact is that the bodies of the Imperial Family did turn up, bearing bullet wounds. So it is perfectly legitimate to conclude that the two missing bodies have simply not been discovered yet.
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
  • Another Anastasia claimant; the ears match exactly
    • View Profile
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2006, 10:30:37 AM »
Quote
Not found yet? He apparently was telling the truth about other events that night, but the forensic evidence didn't appear for over sixty years. If we are to judge his "truthfulness" in this matter, the fact is that the bodies of the Imperial Family did turn up, bearing bullet wounds. So it is perfectly legitimate to conclude that the two missing bodies have simply not been discovered yet.


Exactly.

But some people just have to have their conspiracy theories.

Rachel
xx
'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2006, 11:23:58 AM »
Quote


...[[in part]....

Not found yet?

True.

Why do you think they haven't been found?

The entire area of Pig's Meadow has been dug up.

New devices have been invented which helps grave searchers  find new and old human remains and  this device has been used over the entire surface of Pig's Meadow, even though the area has already been dug up and dug up again and again and again..... Nothing found.

Distances around Pig's Meadow have been searched and dug up, again and again... Nothing found.

They haven't been found for the lack of trying.

Without going into "conspiracies",  "escapes" or debates as to Yurovskys truthfullness or forgetfullness or lack of sleep,  just explain to me why you think the two bodies haven't been found.

AGRBear
 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2006, 11:35:20 AM »
Sure. They haven't looked in the right place.

Look, the bodies --- all of the other bodies --- weren't "found" officially until the late 1970s. We have no way of knowing whether people had discovered them before this and kept quiet about it; after all, the men who dug up and removed the skulls in the 1970s kept quiet about it for a long time. Given the haphazard approach to the grave taken in the early days, we may never know if they were, in  fact, the first to discover it.

I can imagine that the two missing bodies could have been removed at any point before excavations in the Pig's Meadow began. They could have been removed very soon after the night of July 16-17. An analogy: the tombs of the Pharoahs in the Valley of Kings were usually empty when discovered. No one seriously suggests that the tombs were always empty. The bodies were removed. It seems to me perfectly possible that the bodies of the Grand Duchess and Tsaresevitch were removed --- they were, after all, separated from the others from the beginning. And to continue with the Valley of the Kings analogy, despite the fact that this is probably the most worked-over archeological site extant, there are still fresh, major discoveries being made. The woods around the Pig's Meadow grave have been searched for, what, fifteen or so years?

So they could still be there. Belochka has a fascinating link on her profile to the SEARCH project, and I question your statement that the area has been thoroughly excavated.

No need for conspiracies.
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6649
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2006, 11:44:04 AM »
The remains, after being burned, could also have simply been smashed up and scattered "to winds".  Someday, someone  may find a fragment or 2. Who knows, some may already been found and just either not indentified yet or even mis-identified.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2006, 12:01:32 PM »
Quote
Sure. They haven't looked in the right place.

Look, the bodies --- all of the other bodies --- weren't "found" officially until the late 1970s. We have no way of knowing whether people had discovered them before this and kept quiet about it; after all, the men who dug up and removed the skulls in the 1970s kept quiet about it for a long time. Given the haphazard approach to the grave taken in the early days, we may never know if they were, in  fact, the first to discover it.

I can imagine that the two missing bodies could have been removed at any point before excavations in the Pig's Meadow began. They could have been removed very soon after the night of July 16-17. An analogy: the tombs of the Pharoahs in the Valley of Kings were usually empty when discovered. No one seriously suggests that the tombs were always empty. The bodies were removed. It seems to me perfectly possible that the bodies of the Grand Duchess and Tsaresevitch were removed --- they were, after all, separated from the others from the beginning. And to continue with the Valley of the Kings analogy, despite the fact that this is probably the most worked-over archeological site extant, there are still fresh, major discoveries being made. The woods around the Pig's Meadow grave have been searched for, what, fifteen or so years?

So they could still be there. Belochka has a fascinating link on her profile to the SEARCH project, and I question your statement that the area has been thoroughly excavated.

No need for conspiracies.

One of your speculation might well be true.

What is Belochka's link about the excavation?  I'm always interested in the latest news.  

Anyone else have any thoughts on any other reasons the two bodies haven't been found?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 814
  • Another Anastasia claimant; the ears match exactly
    • View Profile
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2006, 12:15:17 PM »
My own opinion is that the bones were probably dug up by animals.

If they weren't laid over with logs like the other bodies, they would have been much more vulnerable to being disturbed, whether by animals, humans or simply mother nature.

I doubt that the remains will ever be found in any complete, identifiable cluster.  It is likely that the remains, if they do still remain in the forest, have been severely fragmented, and so while small fragments may be found, it will be almost impossible to tell if they come from a human or animal, and I would imagine also impossible to defintively say they belong to a member of the Imperial Family that has not already been found.

Rachel
xx
'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2006, 12:21:28 PM »
Quote
The remains, after being burned, could also have simply been smashed up and scattered "to winds".  Someday, someone  may find a fragment or 2. Who knows, some may already been found and just either not indentified yet or even mis-identified.

Warning:  You may not want to read this post because it's very gory in descriptions.

Have you ever seen or smelled a burnt human body?

I can only imagine what horror the young guards on buriel duty must have felt about the two bodies which they were to bury.

The smell probably turned their stomach.

Burning bodies with what Yurovsky had provided as fuel for burning wasn't enough to do anything more that place a black crust around the corpse which still would be intact and there would have been no easy pile of ashes to push into the open grave dug.

This blacken mass of two bodies would have to be rolled or pushed into the grave since it's musles, tendions, bones were still all attached.

I hardly think the bodies as they were that night would have been "smashed" by any of those men and yes, that's just my opinion.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2006, 12:40:30 PM »
Hmm. You may want to PM Belochka for the link; the site is really interesting, and there are pictures of the forest and gravesite that will interest you, I think.

I didn't get the impression that Robert meant handfuls of ashes being flung to the wind, I thought he meant that the bodies may have been prised apart and the limbs scattered. I find it unconvincing that young men who could gun down helpless women and children at close quarters would have been affected by the scene you graphically describe, but that's just my opinion.

The most likely explanation, though of course not the only, is that the bodies have simply yet to be found.
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2006, 12:42:38 PM »
Quote
My own opinion is that the bones were probably dug up by animals.

If they weren't laid over with logs like the other bodies, they would have been much more vulnerable to being disturbed, whether by animals, humans or simply mother nature.

I doubt that the remains will ever be found in any complete, identifiable cluster.  It is likely that the remains, if they do still remain in the forest, have been severely fragmented, and so while small fragments may be found, it will be almost impossible to tell if they come from a human or animal, and I would imagine also impossible to defintively say they belong to a member of the Imperial Family that has not already been found.

Rachel
xx

The bodies were buried on the 18th and a few days later the Whites arrived and started looking around immediately with the help of the White officer Sheremeyevsky, who had been in the village of Koptyaki.  And, Whites were mulling around the area for the next year.  One would think they would have noticed a hole being dug by animals....

Animals large enough to dig up ground do not usually go after burnt humans because of the smell.... and if they were starving and had no other choice, they would not have pulled up the entire body or bodies....   And, if they had, this would have been noticed by all the Whites mulling around and going back and forth to the Four Brothers Mine.

Four male Latvians bodies were not buried and were found near the Four Brothers Mine by the Whites in those early days of investigation.

Other bodies have been found who may have been buried the same length of time as the two missing bodies.   I have not heard or read the details and would be greatly interested in their condition.

Anyone else have any thoughts or knowledge about animals raiding graves?

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152