Author Topic: Why we must believe the official history?  (Read 31616 times)

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2006, 01:00:54 PM »
Just because  the scenario offends someone's modern day senses, does not mean it was not humanly endurable a task. After all, the Nazis did much worse on a much larger scale. And they, for the most part, were even sober.
 If the "smashing & scatering" theory is viable, and animals could well come in to play, all that would be left would be charred bones, the flesh & fat having been burned away and the smell dissipated. Since  this would have involved only 2 bodies, it is entirely possible to have  done a pretty good job of it. The point is, these various theories are far more plausible than  a severly wounded girl & boy escaping off into to forest and survivng with or without assistance.
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Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2006, 01:02:34 PM »
Oh, Bear, I wasn't talking about straight away.  I was talking years and years later, after decomposition, hence why I said the bones rather than the bodies.

Rachel
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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2006, 01:30:52 PM »
[size=12]Let me remind you also of something I posted on the subject last year.  National Geographic did a great special about a US bomber plane that crashed in Siberia, less than 100 miles from Ekaterinburg, but was not re-discovered for almost 60 years.  The remains of only one of SEVEN crew members on board were found in the plane itself.  The local guides were asked if they thought that they should start to look near the plane, digging, for other remains of the other six.  They both said, No, the local bears and wolves would have easily made it impossible to find anything very soon afterward, and there was no reason to look.  I never heard stories about miraculous US airmen living secret lives in Soviet Russian Siberia after the Second World War. Does this mean we can't prove those six men actually died?[/size]

Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2006, 02:09:32 PM »
Sorry to be unable to provide chapter and verse save that it was probably in Channel 4 (in the UK) news about 10 years ago, that a Japanese soldier, captured by the Russians in 1945 and long presumed dead, was discovered alive and well and living in Vladivistok after having served a huge amount of time in a Gulag.  Older members may also recall multitudinous allegations of US servicemen held as secret POW's by the Russians during the Cold War (though I don't remember any of these being proved).  In other words there COULD be grounds for wondering if the aircraft crew were not killed in the crash or eaten by wolves and bears.  The simplest answer is usually the best, but alas not always.

As far as I can see the "standard" story of Rasputin's murder has gone pretty much unchallenged since 1918 but if you check out the threads you'll see there is huge scope for doubt whether the standard story is the correct one.  Not, of course, that anyone is arguing that the killing didn't take place, just that the details in the various stories are inconsistent with the hard facts.

Phil Tomaselli

Offline Belochka

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2006, 06:22:58 PM »
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Sure. They haven't looked in the right place.

So they could still be there. Belochka has a fascinating link on her profile to the SEARCH project, and I question your statement that the area has been thoroughly excavated.

No need for conspiracies.

What is Belochka's link about the excavation?  I'm always interested in the latest news.  

AGRBear

Bear immediately below the yellow logo in my signature, there is a clickable link to the [size=14]SEARCH Foundation [/size]site, of which I am a member.

I hope that it will provide you with the answers your seek.

Regards,

Margarita
 :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2006, 07:02:46 PM »
Search Foundation for the Two Missing Bodies Web Site: http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

The web site was interesting.   Thank you.

Unfortuntely,  the site was jumbled in sime parts where text wrap which should occur around the photographs but it wasn't.   This means people can not see some of the written word which are covered by the photographs.

Will the thumbnail photographs be linked to larger photographs?

I do hope that when the two bodies are found that great care will be given them which the other nine in the mass grave did not.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2006, 07:07:08 PM »
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My own opinion is that the bones were probably dug up by animals.

If they weren't laid over with logs like the other bodies, they would have been much more vulnerable to being disturbed, whether by animals, humans or simply mother nature.

I doubt that the remains will ever be found in any complete, identifiable cluster.  It is likely that the remains, if they do still remain in the forest, have been severely fragmented, and so while small fragments may be found, it will be almost impossible to tell if they come from a human or animal, and I would imagine also impossible to defintively say they belong to a member of the Imperial Family that has not already been found.

Rachel
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 This theory seems very logical to me.

hellokitty2121

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2006, 07:09:37 PM »
AGbear why do you think that Yurofski was lying?

Offline Belochka

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2006, 07:34:19 PM »
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Just because  the scenario offends someone's modern day senses, does not mean it was not humanly endurable a task. After all, the Nazis did much worse on a much larger scale. And they, for the most part, were even sober.
 If the "smashing & scatering" theory is viable, and animals could well come in to play, all that would be left would be charred bones, the flesh & fat having been burned away and the smell dissipated. Since  this would have involved only 2 bodies, it is entirely possible to have  done a pretty good job of it. The point is, these various theories are far more plausible than  a severly wounded girl & boy escaping off into to forest and survivng with or without assistance.

The nazis used furnces that were capable of attaining extremely high temperature in an enclosed defined space under controlled conditions. A bonfire in an open space will never reach the required temperature to convert bone to ash. Charring yes, but not complete destruction of the integrity of the bone tissue.

Thus the very idea of 'scattering the ashes to the winds' was an implausible event.

We do not know whether Halliburton received an accurate translation of what was being claimed by Yermakov, nor do we know under what conditions that interview was conducted. The NKVD controlled all interviews conducted on behalf of foreigners. In this case the interpreter would be the most suitable candidate. The NKVD's presence would dictate that what was described may not reflect the real conversation word for word. The elderly sick Yermakov would not know, and the reliant Halliburton would also be no wiser.  It was 1935, and the stalinist purges were threatening all who spoke or stepped beyond the invisible political line.

Let us not forget that Alexei lost the ability to walk. There is no way that he would have "escaped" The further complication of suffering Hemophilia, would not have permitted his survivability for any significant time. If he did not succumb to shock and lapse into a coma at the time, he would never have survived, because he would never have overcome his internal bleeding from the invasion of bullets piercing through his soft tissues.

To take this matter one further step, "if" his unconscious body was "removed" ... what then? No one knew he suffered from hemophilia outside the Family and Court associates in Ekaterinburg. How could a complete stranger understand how to alleviate his internal hemorrhaging AND ensure that he received the appropriate longterm specialist medical attention in the rural back blocks? He survived to the age of thirteen because of the expert care he received daily. But once that care was compromised (the shooting) so was his survivability.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Belochka

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2006, 07:41:06 PM »
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Search Foundation for the Two Missing Bodies Web Site: http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

The web site was interesting.   Thank you.

Will the thumbnail photographs be linked to larger photographs?

AGRBear

Thanks for this suggestion Bear!

Margarita



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Offline Belochka

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2006, 07:51:31 PM »
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My own opinion is that the bones were probably dug up by animals.
... I doubt that the remains will ever be found in any complete, identifiable cluster.  It is likely that the remains, if they do still remain in the forest, have been severely fragmented, and so while small fragments may be found ...

Rachel
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 One human bone fragment is all that is needed to conduct an mtDNA profile assay.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2006, 09:58:43 PM »
Belochka, dear,
 I was not referring to the crematoria  that the Nazis  used. I was referring to the earlier mass executions with  "bonfires & burials". These proved unsatisfactory and eventually more industrial methods were employed.
 My point remains, a couple of bodies, young and fairly fragile, would be easily disposed of through the means I have brought up in this discussion. Whether or not that is what actually happened, and there are several  scenarios possible here, is not really important. What remains is the fact that a mass execution took place and the bodies were disposed of.
 They all died.
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2006, 11:04:51 PM »
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Belochka, dear,
 I was not referring to the crematoria  that the Nazis  used. I was referring to the earlier mass executions with  "bonfires & burials". These proved unsatisfactory and eventually more industrial methods were employed.
 
... What remains is the fact that a mass execution took place and the bodies were disposed of.
 They all died.

Ok Robert thanks for clarifying that point.  :)

You make a very significant point here in that the disposal technique which the nazis employed before the use of crematoria - proved inefficient.

This is exactly why "Yermakov's" assertion fails.  The bolshevik murderers attempted to accomplish a similar outcome, but that task failed because it proved to be ineffective. Clearly, what "Yermakov" was claimed to have stated was a figment of either his or his interpreter's imagination.

Why does no one consider that Yermakov might never have actually said that he "pitched the ashes into the air - and the wind caught them like dust and carried them across the woods and fields...", but this entire revelation may have been fabricated by the soviet "approved" interpreter?

There might have been a wind but there were no ashes.

Somehow I doubt that Yermakov would countenance the possibility of Romanov remnants to be embedded over himself, purposefully picking the "ashes" with his bare hands, with the wind blowing, in order to scatter those ashes far and wide.  The scenario portrayed is a nonsense.

Such imagery created after the fact, smells of soviet propaganda to simply affirm that the Imperial Family was no more.

Margarita
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Belochka

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2006, 11:24:13 PM »
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What remains is the fact that a mass execution took place and the bodies were disposed of.
 They all died.

[size=14]Absolutely correct Robert! [/size]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


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Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2006, 01:57:45 AM »
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My own opinion is that the bones were probably dug up by animals.
... I doubt that the remains will ever be found in any complete, identifiable cluster.  It is likely that the remains, if they do still remain in the forest, have been severely fragmented, and so while small fragments may be found ...

Rachel
xx


 One human bone fragment is all that is needed to conduct an mtDNA profile assay.

Oh, yes, I know that.  But what I was pointing out is that there could be no definitive proof that if any bone fragments were found, that they could be said to be those of the missing GD or Alexei.  Because there are so many bones missing from the bodies in the mass grave, any fragments found could also feasibly belong to one of the bodies in the mass grave.  Because the bones of the GD and Alexei are in all likelihood completely scattered to the winds, it would be nigh on impossible, I think, to state categorically 'We have found the missing children' because there simply wouldn't be the volume of bone found all together to constitute having found two other bodies.

I hope that makes sense? Obviously this is just my conjecture anyway, but I just wanted to make that more clear.

Rachel
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'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel