Author Topic: Why we must believe the official history?  (Read 31434 times)

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Offline ordino

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Why we must believe the official history?
« on: March 26, 2006, 04:09:54 PM »
Always I had the impression that the official history, that is the all the family dead, was a very well done screeenplay. Everything match: Nicholas a bad tsar ( I think he was the first patriot, he abdicated because he did not want a  civil  war... and more), the Tsarina a terrible woman, Rasputin the monster, and the revolution. And in the end, 80 or 90 years after surpraise we have the bodies, thanks God we have de bodies, but all the bodies?, no, there are two bodies missing, Alexei and Anastasia or Maria. Sorry for my tone, but I donīt believe de official history, I think that the soviets lied then and now. Just two questions and thanks in advance for the answers.
Why there are no photos of the bodies, several no just one of the group?
and
What happen whit the two boddies missing?
Ordino :)

Offline Belochka

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2006, 09:19:06 PM »
Quote
Sorry for my tone, but I donīt believe de official history, I think that the soviets lied then and now.  

Hi Ordino,

What do you believe was the real story? Agreeably, the soviets were masters of creating their version of what the "truth" should be, however the White movement at the time was not entirely immune from stirring the pot of "truth".

Today the practice of inventing "historic truths" continues and thrives, but with different faces and with very different agendas.


Quote
Just two questions and thanks in advance for the answers.
Why there are no photos of the bodies, several no just one of the group?
and
What happen whit the two boddies missing?
Ordino :)

1. It is not known whether there were photographs taken on that or on subsequent nights. If they exist at all they remain unavailable to this day.  
  
It has been suggested that the gruesome group image, (which I have as part of special folder that was issued in Europe decades ago), represents victims of civil war, rather than the I.F. It is visually distorted and does not allow any detailed identification.  
  
2. Please click on the [size=14]SEARCH Foundation [/size]
link below, in my posting. That site may offer you the information you may be seeking.  
 
Margarita [/color]


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2006, 08:07:40 AM »
Please also don't forget that Yurovsky et al were going to GREAT lengths to [highlight]hide the murders[/highlight].  Why would then want photographs for pete's sake?! They didn't want anyone to know what happened, so photos would be the last thing they wanted lying around.

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2006, 08:09:33 AM »
There's a photo reportedly of the IF's bodies? Where can I find this?

Ordino, you're entitled to believe what you want.  If you don't want to believe the 'official' history, then don't.  Always question, is my motto. Yes, a lot of what happened to the IF doesn't add up, and yes, we know that the 'official' story about Nicholas the tyrant and Alexandra the German wh*re was propaganda to blacken the name of the Imperial Family by the Soviets.  So much of history is unreliable, because so many people in history have twisted the truth for their own ends.

As for what happened to the bodies and whether they were 'really' murdered, some people are just never going to be satisfied.  I believe Yurovsky's statement that two bodies, that of Alexei and one of the GDs, were burned separately and that is why they haven't been found.  I also believe that the ENTIRE IF were killed on the night of July 18th in the cellar of the Ipatiev house.  I have seen no evidence that has really made me believe otherwise. The bodies of the IF and their servants have been found and identified with DNA.  Alexei, and I believe Anastasia, are missing, but they didn't escape, they are in the forest somewhere and I believe they will be found at some point in the not too distant future, putting to an end this Anna Anderson and other survivors nonsense once and for all.

In the meantime, yes, do question the 'official' story.  Read everything you can and come to your own conclusions.  Don't be satisfied just with what other people tell you.  Other people aren't always right.  And that includes what I've just written.  I may be wrong.  This is just what I believe.

Rachel
xx
'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline Sarushka

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2006, 08:22:44 AM »
Quote
There's a photo reportedly of the IF's bodies? Where can I find this?

There are *no* known photos of the execution. Edvard Radzinsky speculated on the idea in Last Tsar, based on the fact that Yurovsky had been a photographer, which seems to have fueled rumors that he did photograph the exectuion. There's also a drawing of the bodies in the cellar room that's sometimes mistaken for a photo...
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Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2006, 08:40:01 AM »
Oh right, thanks Sarushka! :)

Talk about misleading!

Rachel
xx
'History teaches that history teaches us nothing' ~ Hegel

Offline Ivan Komarov

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2006, 10:12:01 AM »
Quote
Quote
There's a photo reportedly of the IF's bodies? Where can I find this?

There are *no* known photos of the execution. Edvard Radzinsky speculated on the idea in Last Tsar, based on the fact that Yurovsky had been a photographer, which seems to have fueled rumors that he did photograph the exectuion. There's also a drawing of the bodies in the cellar room that's sometimes mistaken for a photo...
 ::)

Umm...that drawing...was that the one by the French artist Sarmat?  I can sort of see how his images could be mistaken for photographs, more or less; I do, however, doubt their significance because the artist wasn't actually there; and I found a site that has two such images on it (both are slightly differently discouloured):

http://www.romanov-memorial.com/Drama.htm
Just in case the fates are kind and you come back someday
I don't want to live without my little Anastasia
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Offline Annie

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2006, 10:59:35 AM »
The most ironic thing about some of the misconstrued history is that lies told to cover up the fact that the family was dead ended up fueling rumors of their escape! For example, the Perm stories. These stories were totally false and most likely planted by Bolsheviks to cover the fact that Alexandra and the girls had been killed, since they had just made peace with Germany, and the Germans had demanded the 'princesses of German blood' (Alix and her daughters) to be handed over safely to them. So, this was not very good for relations to find out they had been brutally killed, was it? No one immediately knew the entire family had perished. Even the respectable NY Times printed a story it believed to be true, saying only the Tsar had been shot, and Alix and the children had been moved to an undisclosed location. So there were lies told, but it wasn't because they were alive, it was because they were dead!

 In Felix Yussoupov's memoirs, he tells how he, his family, the Dowager Empress and many other royals and nobles had been holed up in the Crimea in the summer of 1918, hearing rumors and rumors of rumors that the family was dead, alive, and back and forth until they didn't believe any of it. Also, there is a precedence for this lying to cover murders: the main executioner of GD Ella, the KR sons, Prince Paley and Sergei Mikhailovich the day after the IF wrote in his memoirs that after tossing them down the mine shaft, he and his men returned to the town, rang a bell and announced the prisoners had been taken away by 'unknown persons.' This diverted the blame from them, but gave false hope to family members, who believed they were still alive. However, no one had to wait long to learn the truth. In little over a week, the White army took the town and the bodies were found in the pit, so all rumors of survival and escape were put to rest. Sadly, since the Romanov bones were not found for many decades, lots of rumors, tall tales, speculation and incorrect information was allowed to spread, perpetuate and manifest in ways it never should have. Some people believe some of it to this day, because the mystery is more fun and exciting than the truth- that they all died horribly that night in 1918.

It's true that two bodies remain missing, and until we find them, there will always be wondering about what happened to them and if they were alive. Considering the brutality of the murders and the condition of the bodies, their survival is most unlikely. There are reports that two of the bodies were burned along the way, and this would account for the missing ones. Sadly, we may never find these remains to prove it, so the guessing game will go on. We do know that none of the claimants were who they said they were, not even Anna Anderson, whose claim was proven false by DNA testing. It would be nice to believe that Anastasia and Alexei got away and lived long lives in obscurity, but it's just not realistic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Margarita Markovna

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2006, 07:20:36 PM »
There is however a picture of Ella's body. It's somewhere on the Ella board I think.

Offline Annie

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2006, 07:44:16 PM »
There are pictures of the bodies of all those who died with her too :'(

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2006, 09:11:39 PM »
Why must we believe the official history?

Great question!

Napoleon  said: >>What is history but a fable agreed upon?<<  And, he ought to have known since he did a great job of rewriting history to suit his own needs.

Napoleon was and is not alone in twisting the truths.  Most victors are guilty of this twisting of the truth as are the defeated.

The Bolsheviks, CHEKA,  GPU, communists, KGB were brillant at twisting  fable with the truth.  For example:  For years and years they made the world believe only a few million Russians perished during the Bolshevik Revolution, the Civil War and another few million died during the years of famine [1917-1930].  It turns out that maybe 20 million Russian died.  So,  if the communists can hide the truth about 15 million deaths from the public eye, surly they can hide the truth about two missing children of Nicholas II and Alexandra.

Yep,  you guessed it.  My anwer is:  One can't always believe official history.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2006, 09:13:45 AM »
[size=12]I still hold true to "Occam's Razor" (The simplest explanation is almost always the correct one), or as a Superior Court judge once said during a trial...."If it doesn't make sense, it just can't be true!".  I've been questioned about why I take such a hard line about no one surviving. This is the answer.  When the situation is assessed logically, not emotionally, and the known facts examined, and the ONLY possiblilties of anyone surviving given some real evidentiary weight, the sheer volume of speculation, "divine intervention" and multiplicity of steps of illogic and tiny probabilites involved to make the survivor story plausible seem to me to run totally contrary to logic and genuine realistic "making sense".

Sorry if that annoys you, but I just don't see some "hero Bolshevik" risking his life to snatch even ONE badly wounded grand duchess (not to even discuss Alexei) off the truck in the forest, and go the the impossible steps of treating, healing, caring for, clothing, feeding, sheltering, hiding, transporting, rescuing, etc etc etc ad nauseum as being remotely making sense. It's just TOO complicated and relies on TOO many tenuous assumptions. period.
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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2006, 10:18:52 AM »
Quote
[size=12]I still hold true to "Occam's Razor" (The simplest explanation is almost always the correct one), or as a Superior Court judge once said during a trial...."If it doesn't make sense, it just can't be true!".  I've been questioned about why I take such a hard line about no one surviving. This is the answer.  When the situation is assessed logically, not emotionally, and the known facts examined, and the ONLY possiblilties of anyone surviving given some real evidentiary weight, the sheer volume of speculation, "divine intervention" and multiplicity of steps of illogic and tiny probabilites involved to make the survivor story plausible seem to me to run totally contrary to logic and genuine realistic "making sense".

Sorry if that annoys you, but I just don't see some "hero Bolshevik" risking his life to snatch even ONE badly wounded grand duchess (not to even discuss Alexei) off the truck in the forest, and go the the impossible steps of treating, healing, caring for, clothing, feeding, sheltering, hiding, transporting, rescuing, etc etc etc ad nauseum as being remotely making sense. It's just TOO complicated and relies on TOO many tenuous assumptions. period.
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Why would you think that your opinions would annoy Bear?  This would be a pretty dull world if everyone agreed with each other.  

I think my comments and your question about escape belongs in the thread someone has provided.  

My comment  was about the topic:  Why we must believe the official history?  History from time to time needs clean it's house once in order to free history of the old dusty data which is no longer accurate  if we wish to keep history as close to the truth as humaningly possible.

Let me repeat what Cervantes said in Don Quixote, Pt. i, ch. 9.:
>>Historians ought to be precise, faithful, and unprejudice; and neither interest nor fear, hatred nor affection, should make them swerve from the way of the truth.<<

Since humans have the tendency to be wordy, unfaithful, full of prejudices,  being fearful, having hatreds and falling into moments of affection,  it is rare to find an historian without one or all of these tendencies.  Therefore, I think we can assume that all history is tainted to some degree (slightly to full blown fabrications) in the past, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

AGRBear

PS  URL for the threaad "Realisticaly was excape possible:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/YaBB.cgi?num=1139234760/0#0
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2006, 12:37:48 PM »
[size=12]Bear,
First, my comment was not directed at you specifically, though I can see why you would think I may have been replying to the post immediately prior to mine.  It was a rhetorical, general "you", not AGRBear.

Second, if you read the very first post starting this disucssion, the very notion of "escape" is EXACTLY the Official History being questioned (ie: that no one escaped to survive).
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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Why we must believe the official history?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2006, 04:56:54 PM »
Quote
Always I had the impression that the official history, that is the all the family dead, was a very well done screeenplay. Everything match: Nicholas a bad tsar ( I think he was the first patriot, he abdicated because he did not want a  civil  war... and more), the Tsarina a terrible woman, Rasputin the monster, and the revolution. And in the end, 80 or 90 years after surpraise we have the bodies, thanks God we have de bodies, but all the bodies?, no, there are two bodies missing, Alexei and Anastasia or Maria. Sorry for my tone, but I donīt believe de official history, I think that the soviets lied then and now. Just two questions and thanks in advance for the answers.
Why there are no photos of the bodies, several no just one of the group?
and
What happen whit the two boddies missing?
Ordino :)


orodino: >>Why there are no photos of the bodies, several no just one of the group?<<
BEAR: Ordinarily,  there would have been photos taken of this group of executioners but no one kowns for sure if one was taken of this group of executioners. If done were taken, it was probably because buriel and reburiel  took far to long to take place and the Whites hadn't been about to pounce into Ekaterinburg.  And, too,  Yurovsky was off to Moscow with his story and boxes of stuff.  By the time the Reds took control of Ekaterinburg area over a year later,  people had vanished, died or were somewhere else.  

----
and
orodino: >>What happen whit the two boddies missing?<<
BEAR:

Yurovsky claimed the two bodies were buried "near" the mass grave.

No one has found the remains of a Grand Duchess and Alexis.

So,  my question has been:  Why would Yurovsky tell the truth about the mass grave which held nine bodies and not tell the truth about the two missing bodies?


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152