Author Topic: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier  (Read 97958 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2006, 07:45:41 AM »
First, I want to draw attention to the fact that every single thing in ChatNoir's post was just what I had complained about, he said she saids. See my post above about incorrect testimonies. Just because these people allegedly said they allegedly heard her say these things does not mean they were telling the truth, or getting it right (especially since it seems to have come from supporters) If there was never any official school-type test to judge the true extent of her language skills, I remain skeptical.

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Is this the same Felix and Gertrude who testified that AA wasn't their sister?
We can't trust anything they say.

Me either. Once they had denied her as their sister, they couldn't say anything that was going to show them up as liars (I don't think it was a 'lie' in a bad way as much as covering her butt, as well as their own, from the trouble of her very extensive, expensive false, fraudulent claim. Outing her would have certainly been a big legal and financial disaster for her, possibly them, too, as her only family)

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Faulty German with a 'Russian' accent? Who identified this accent as Russian?

Again I will bring up the fact that AN had a natural gift for accents, and could mimic anything she heard. If she was speaking German, she could have done it in a German accent. So saying it was a "Russian" accent does not impress me.


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In the Dalldorf Asylum she was said to be speaking Russian, yes, but by GERMAN nurses WHO DID NOT SPEAK RUSSIAN.  Slavic languages, to the untrained ear, all sound very similar. The 'Russian' AA spoke could easily have been Polish.
Nurse Erna Bucholz was not a native Russian, so how she could pass the judgement that AA spoke Russian like a native when she was not one herself is beyond me.

Yes I have always thought this, too. I doubt those people knew Russian well enough to judge it from another similar sounding language. It happens. I remember thinking that a group of tourists I ran into were German because of their language and accent, but it turned out they were Dutch :-[


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 Neither mentioned anything about AA being fluent in Russian, which AN was, so how it matters whether she spoke some Russian or not, I don't know, because if she WAS AN, she would have to speak much better Russian than just 'acceptable' to convince me.

I agree with this too!

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By 1938 AA had been in Germany among the emigre community and supporters for well over 10 years.  I think she would have had enough time to be taught pretty good conversational Russian.

Yes, by then she would have had time to learn all the languages. This doesn't prove she knew them originally.


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Both hearsay from people with an invested interest in AA being AN.  If we believed all of this hearsay from random people, not necessarily qualified to make a judgement on the quality of AA's linguistic ability, seeing as the majority of them did not SPEAK the languages in question, so a sentence would sound like fluency, then AA would be the best linguist the world has ever seen.

Again, GOOD one!


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So she managed to order breakfast in French.

So did my Dad when he was in France, but he doesn't speak a word of it.

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AN was coached in languages

I think so too.

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2006, 07:55:17 AM »
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[size=12]Ra-Ra-Rasputin, I agree with just about everything you say in your post. I would also like to say that you are brave to say that the Slavic languages may sound very similar to the untrained ear - I said something similar in another thread and almost got my head chopped off for it.  :-X :D

I agree with both of you.

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I definitely believe that Anna Anderson was coached in languages. Ever since I first read about her "ability to speak Russian" at Dalldorf I have been very suspicious of that whole story. Apparently "all doctors and nurses" at Dalldorf testified that she was "fluent in Russian and spoke freely about matters concerning Russia". All? Dalldorf was a mental asylum, and I cannot help but wonder how come the whole staff there were experts on Russian matters and Russian language.

Later, Anna Anderson refused to speak Russian because "it was spoken in that house" (the Ipatiev house). At Dalldorf she allegedly spoke Russian (it was not impossible for her to speak Russian because of "that house" then...?) but in fact she spoke A LOT more in German. Why, I ask, would she chose to speak German, if Russian was impossible for her to speak (because of "that house"), when English would have been a much more natural and given choice, since Anastasia Nicholaievna spoke English fluently and German hardly at all. The answer is of course - Fräulein Unbekannt, who used to be Franziska Schanzkowska, and was later known as Anna Anderson and finally as Anastasia Manahan, did not speak Russian.

*applause* All very good points!

She allegedly spoke Russian earlier, then didn't in later years? Isn't that weird?;) I don't believe she spoke it in the first place. It was either a lie by supporters, or people mistook another language (likey Polish Kabuchian) for Russian because they didn't know any better.


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Now I will be gone for a few days, but I wish everybody a fantastic weekend,

You will be missed, have a nice weekend.


 
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and to Ra-Ra-Rasputin - keep up your excellent work and dito postings! :)[/size][/font]

Thank you, and Ra-Ra, for your excellent posts! Hopefully the two of you will be able to get through to people where I have failed. You're both brilliant!


Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2006, 08:00:56 AM »
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First, I want to draw attention to the fact that every single thing in ChatNoir's post was just what I had complained about, he said she saids. See my post above about incorrect testimonies. Just because these people allegedly said they allegedly heard her say these things does not mean they were telling the truth, or getting it right (especially since it seems to have come from supporters) If there was never any official school-type test to judge the true extent of her language skills, I remain skeptical.

Exactly and I fully agree with that.  There was never an aptitude test done by an objective person so we can never say for definite what languages AA spoke and to what ability.  It is ridiculous to base evidence on what Person X and Person Y say, because how do we know they are reliable and even know what they're talking about? Answer- we don't.  As you quite rightly say, just because someone swore it in court, it doesn't mean it's true.

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Me either. Once they had denied her as their sister, they couldn't say anything that was going to show them up as liars (I don't think it was a 'lie' in a bad way as much as covering her butt, as well as their own, from the trouble of her very extensive, expensive false, fraudulent claim. Outing her would have certainly been a big legal and financial disaster for her, possibly them, too, as her only family)

Exactly.  FS's relations had it in their and their sister's best interests to lie and say they didn't know her.  The fact they said she was FS and then that she wasn't makes them very suspicious, as well as the fact that obviously they were lying because the DNA proves it.

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Again I will bring up the fact that AN had a natural gift for accents, and could mimic anything she heard. If she was speaking German, she could have done it in a German accent. So saying it was a "Russian" accent does not impress me.

Absolutely true! I keep forgetting to pick up on this.  AN spoke all of the foreign languages she was taught with a perfect accent. Why would she suddenly revert to comedy Russian in all of the foreign languages she reportedly spoke?

Also Rebecca's points are very, very interesting.

If Polish/Kashubian was a 'peasant' language in the area they lived, it is likely that her family would want to deny she spoke it well at all.

AND if AA refused to speak Russian because of the guards in the Ipatiev house (who she had actually got on well with- it wasn't the regular guards who participated in the murder, and also, if this so called 'kind' guard Tchaikovsky had rescued her, why would she have such an aversion to Russian because of the guards?), why did she suddenly start speaking it later on??

PERHAPS because it was only later on that she had been taught it to speak it.

Rachel
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Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2006, 08:05:03 AM »
 
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and to Ra-Ra-Rasputin - keep up your excellent work and dito postings! :)[/size][/font]

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Thank you, and Ra-Ra, for your excellent posts! Hopefully the two of you will be able to get through to people where I have failed. You're both brilliant!


Thank you both very much! :)

It's nice to be appreciated. :)

Annie and Rebecca, I think you're both wonderful and very logical thinkers.  Plus, Rebecca, your knowledge of linguistics has been very helpful these past few days.  Welcome to the team! ;) Have a lovely weekend as well.

Rachel
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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2006, 09:01:22 AM »
Rebecca, Rachel and Annie:
Would you please state your sources to all your ramblings? Who was her language coach? (As someone who speak 6 languages, I can tell you that it is not that easy to learn without having a good teacher and doing lots of writing.)
Who stated that AN could pick up any accent? We know that she was a good mimic and made fun of people, just like AA did on occasions.
Who said that the Schankowskis denied knowing their "sister"? This is pure speculation on your part. May I also add that when Felix met AA, he never called her Franziska and titulated her with "Sie", not "Du" as one would do with a family member. You would all do well to check your "facts".

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2006, 09:49:08 AM »
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Rebecca, Rachel and Annie:
Would you please state your sources to all your ramblings?Who was her language coach? (As someone who speak 6 languages, I can tell you that it is not that easy to learn without having a good teacher and doing lots of writing.)

We are speculating, based on what we know. Who? I'd sure like to know! Speaking of a lot of writing, is there any evidence IN WRITING that AA was functional in English, French and Russian before she made her claim? Where are these papers? They'd hold a lot more weight with me than what this and that person (who may have been lying or mistaken) said.


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Who stated that AN could pick up any accent? We know that she was a good mimic and made fun of people, just like AA did on occasions.

So since when did AA mimic anyone? She was rude to people, made fun of them, yes, but accurately imitate their voices and accent? I don't think so! You can tell by the recording of her that she had only one rugged accent she used when speaking English, so obviously she couldn't use or imitate an accurate British accent, or even an American one, after living in the US for years!

From Nicholas and Alexandra, By Robert K. Massie, p. 127:

The same ear and tongue that made her quickest to pick up a perfect accent in foreign languages also equipped her admirably as a mimic..


AN had a gift for accents, AA did not.

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Who said that the Schankowskis denied knowing their "sister"? This is pure speculation on your part.

Of course it is. Who's going to admit to lying about it? But again, who'd claim a sister they knew they'd have to drag home kicking and screaming angry that her claim had been spoiled, and possibly have to care for her for the rest of her life? As Felix said one time years later "we left her to her 'career' as Anastasia." He had also said, before he met her 'If she is mysister, I won't be held responsible for her, will I?" So it seems that they did know, but didn't admit it for their own good as well as hers. The woman had filed a false claim. That's against the law. Exposing her would have caused everyone a lot of finanacial and legal hassle, not to mention the embarrassment. Public humiliation on the family honor was a terrible thing in the older times, and this was a huge embarrassment. No wonder they denied her. There was EVERY reason to deny her and NO GOOD reason to claim her. You just have to figure it out. And since we know from the tests that she WAS their sister, it makes more than a lot of sense. Sometimes logical deduction and reasonable explainations are all we have. Nobody's ever going to leave a diary saying 'I lied' or 'I fed AA info.'

This is a dicussion forum, a place to talk things over and give our own views and ideas. Not everyone limits themselves to quoting from "Riddle of Anastasia" and "File on the Tsar."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2006, 10:16:17 AM »
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Rebecca, Rachel and Annie:
Would you please state your sources to all your ramblings?

Hey, why don't you state a source other than The Riddle of Anna Anderson? Peter Kurth was clearly mistaken in his belief, so I don't see why we should quote things endlessly from sources that have been proven to be erroneous.

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Who was her language coach? (As someone who speak 6 languages, I can tell you that it is not that easy to learn without having a good teacher and doing lots of writing.)

AA could easily have been taught languages by someone with any patience to teach her.  I have taught French to many people, and I don't even speak it fluently.  I have learned four languages in my lifetime so far, and I disagree with what you say.  Go to England for six months if you're not English, mix with English people solely, and you WILL pick up English.  My friend's mother is from Slovakia and she came to England not knowing a word of English.  From watching TV soaps, she learnt enough English in a few weeks to get by.  So don't tell me it's impossible to learn languages unless you are rigorously taught.  AA was around multilingual people having conversations in a lot of different languages.  She could easily have picked up enough of foreign languages to SOUND PROFICIENT to those who did not speak those languages.  AA NEVER SPOKE FLUENTLY in ANY language, if we believe all of the hearsay you keep posting.

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Who stated that AN could pick up any accent? We know that she was a good mimic and made fun of people, just like AA did on occasions.

Read Annie's quote.

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Who said that the Schankowskis denied knowing their "sister"? This is pure speculation on your part. May I also add that when Felix met AA, he never called her Franziska and titulated her with "Sie", not "Du" as one would do with a family member. You would all do well to check your "facts".

Felix and Gertrude both expressed many times, as Annie has already said, that FS was their sister but they were not going to admit it to protect her and themselves.  Felix did not want to be held responsible for her and all her medical bills, as Annie has already said.

We are not rambling, we are speculating based on our knowledge of languages and the information we have from lots of different sources.  Just because we don't agree with your version of events, it doesn't mean we are 'rambling' or incorrect.  

WHEN IT COMES TO AA, THERE ARE NO CUT AND DRIED 'FACTS'.  EVERYTHING IS JUST HEARSAY. THE ONLY FACT WE DO HAVE IS THAT AA WASN'T AN, AND WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE OF THE DNA.

I suggest you stop closing your eyes to everything that disagrees with your opinion and stop stating the same old nonsense.  I'm tired of hearing 'But X Y and Z said'.  I don't care what Mr X and Mr Y said.  I care about looking at this objectively and logically without relying on statements from people that cannot be verified.  Something YOU seem to be incapable of doing.  

Rachel
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2006, 10:29:53 AM »
Where do I start with all this discussion which is bouncing all over the place like a ping-ball machine?

First.  Let's start with the fact that this thread is assuming that AA and FS are the same person.

Secondly,  FS's family was not Polish, they were Kashubian who were very early settlers who had lived along the  coast line of what we know today as Poland.  In FS's early years she spoke Kashubian, not Polish and not German.  Once FS started school this is where she was forced to speak German and it was  probably for the first time.  It was  probably  difficult for FS in the beginning.  How quickly she learned is unknown to us.  Even the brightest children often flouder in the first few months or so....  Since her first language was not  German, no matter how old she became,FS would carry her Kashubian root language somewhere in her speech.  Yes, she could be smart enough to hide it but an expert linguist would discover it sooner or later.

Living in a multi-cultural area would mean that FS would have learned a sprinkling of other languages like Polish.

If  FS's village was small and a closely knit Kashubian community [colony] then the only place German would have been spoken would have been in school.

If FS's village was a mixture of various communities and German was the dominate,  then FS would have only spoken Kashubian in her home and to other Kashubians in their home or when greeting them on the street, stores, if the village had stores.  German would have been spoken outside the home and to others.

It would be interesting to know more about the size of this community and it's make-up.

The German dialect taught in the schools would depend upon who the majority of German were and who was teaching and how educated they were.  There are three basic dialect and each have their own clustered differences.  They were Low German, Middle German, High German, and the rising new "High German" which was really a new standarized German taught in the univeristies, colleges and church schools.  All but the new "High German" was referring to location and not to which was good or poor German.  Although the same language, if a Low German person was thrust into a community of "High Germans"  it might be awhile before he understand what they were saying.

I assume FS's village was not a important community and not in the city of Posen where things would be different.

So we have some basic unknowns.  

(1) We don't know if FS's village was Kashubian or a mixture and if it was a mixture who was in the mix
(2) We do not know what dialect of German was taught to FS in school
(3)  We do not know how easily she learned German once forced to learn it in school.

Posen was in Prussia [Germany] while FS lived in her village near this city.  The laws and schooling would have fallen under what was required.

We do know that when Felix was asked to visit AA on 27 May 1927, which is seven years after AA had jumped into the Berlin canal,  Felix testified  [found on page 174 of Peter Kurth's ANASTASIA] that AA had "a strong resemblance" to his sister.  And,  he said the following:

"My sister Franziska spoke a little Polish and good German."

This is what Felix knew.

Now,  people can have the opinion that Felix was not telling the truth.  There are some people who do lies all the time, however, I have no evidence that Felix  believed AA was his sister, therefore, if he believed AA was not FS then  he was not telling any lies.

If you have evidence that Felix ever changed his mind or his testimony,  I'd like to see it.

I do not know what Felix meant when he said FS spoke "good German".  It could have a variety of meanings.  She could speak German like the Germans in their community or  the  new "High German" which becoming standorized and used by the educated and the Royals.

 
I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2006, 10:48:38 AM »
So, bear, what you're saying is, by reasonable deduction, FS's first language was Kashubian, and her second German? This makes a lot of sense in the AA debate, since AA seemed to speak German as her preferred language, yet it didn't seem to be her first language. To me, this, along with her accent, sounds a lot like AA. So this fits right in with FS being AA IMO.


One more thing on FS's family- I had saved a letter from Gertrude's lawyer stating how she no longer had to be afraid of lying when she denied her sister since the statute of limitations was up, but I can't find it. I think it was in my documents on my broken computer. It must be posted in one of these many many threads, but I don't know when I'll be able to find it. :(

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2006, 11:13:40 AM »
Peter Kurth, ANATASIA, p. 10:

>>The nures at Dalldorf had never doubted that Fraulein Unbekannt was Russian.  It wasn't just her "Eastern" accent or the fact that she spoke foreign languages in her sleep,  "She spoke Russian like a native," said Erna Bucholz, a former German teacher who had lived in Russia,  "not like a foreigner who has learned Russian."  Nurse Bucholz had been the first to take care of Fraulein Unbekannt at Dalldorf...<<

It appears that Nurse Bucholz lived in Russia and was acquainted with the Russian language.

I wonderd by what Bucholz meant that AA spoke Russian like a native even though she does add that she thought AA hadn't learned Russian as a new language.  

I do not know enough about Russian but I assume there is a difference between the Russian the peasants spoke and the Royals.

All this is clearified in her testimony:

p. 10

>>During the nightshift I had a special opportunity to converse with her, as generally she could not sleep... I told her one evening that I cam from Russia, talked about the cathedral in Moscow [St. Masil's] and spoke about Russian matters in general.  She nodded and said she knew all this... I asked her if she could speak Russian.  She answered.  "Yes," whereupon we began to converse in Russian.  She did not speak it faulitly.  Rather, she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments...  I absolutely got the imprssion that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, russian affairs and expecially Russian military matters.<<

So, this was in the summer of 1920.

When did FS learn how to speak Russian well enough to fool a German-Russian.

There is a difference between a German going into Russia to teach German than a German-Russian who lived in Russia, who was educated in Russia where she  gain a teacher's certifiate in Russia and taught German.

When Bucholz talks about the Russian language she used words such as "connected setences without impediments".

I know it's difficult for many of you to understand why there would be so many people in an asylum who were aware of the Russian language.  Remember, there were 50,000 Russians who fled Russia and were in and around Berlin by 1920.  A portion of them were German-Russians like Bucholz.

Making blanket statements that Bucholz wasn't qualified to know the difference between someone speaking Russian like a peasant or like an educated person doesn't make it truth.

Sure, someone could have paid Bucholz to lie, but,  I have never seen evidence that this is true.

I can only go by the weight of the evidence provided and since this was spoken in court,  I weight this is evidence which is quite believeable.

So,  when and from whom  did FS learn proper Russian before she jumped into the Berlin canal because she knew it by the time Bucholz spoke to her in the summer of 1920?

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2006, 11:30:26 AM »
If all we have are word of mouth reports, there is no way to verify them. A man in VA also said, in her old age, she broke into Polish in church. There are dozens of such comments, we will never know how accurate they really are. If there are no written documents of her proving she could converse in and write and read in these languages we are back to hearsay.

It seems strange that, after falling out with many of her supporters in the late 30's, she suddenly refused to speak Russian, claiming it was heard in 'that house.' Wouldn't it have been more traumatizing for her sooner after the executions than later (if she had really been there?) So this makes me suspicious she never really knew Russian but was being fed it by someone, someone she lost contact with? Of course, there was always Botkin, but it is odd she never spoke it again after coming to America. She also never got rid of whatever accent she had, despite AN's great ability to take on foreign accents. FS may have had some contact with all those other languages, but never spoke them to the degree of skill, or accent, AN would have. Sorry, still not AN.

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2006, 11:58:25 AM »
Quote

...[in part]...

One more thing on FS's family- I had saved a letter from Gertrude's lawyer stating how she no longer had to be afraid of lying when she denied her sister since the statute of limitations was up, but I can't find it. I think it was in my documents on my broken computer. It must be posted in one of these many many threads, but I don't know when I'll be able to find it. :(

If I remember correctly,  the letter from the lawyer is just that, a letter from her lawyer.  If Gertrude had written her worries to the lawyer,  then that would be useable evidence for those looking for evidence that Gertrude had these fears.   Since she didn't then it isn't worth anything more than the paper it was printed on.

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2006, 12:00:30 PM »
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If I remember correctly,  the letter from the lawyer is just that, a letter from her lawyer.  If Gertrude had written her worries to the lawyer,  then that would be useable evidence for those looking for evidence that Gertrude had these fears.   Since she didn't then it isn't worth anything more than the paper it was printed on.

Then neither are the he said/she said quotes from person x and y.

Offline Ra-Ra-Rasputin

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2006, 12:01:25 PM »
I just looked up Kashubian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubian_language

Here is some info for anyone who wants to read it.  

I think still, regardless of all this discussion of what who spoke and when, AN DID NOT SPEAK GERMAN WELL ENOUGH TO SPEAK IT TO THE LEVEL AA DID.

So, all of these other languages don't really matter, because the main limitation in the case here is that AN didn't speak German well enough to choose to speak it.  

AA chose to speak it, even though it was obviously not HER first language, because the only other language she had was Kashubian/Polish when she was first found in Germany.  How many people know Kashubian/Polish in Germany? Not as many who knew German, obviously.  So AA spoke German because that is the only way she would be understood; if she had spoken any other languages better, surely she would have used them among those who knew other languages better than German? If AA had have been AN, it is FAR more likely she would have chosen to speak in English to non Germans, as she spoke English better than German and would have found it easier to articulate herself.  But that is not the case.  Why? Because AA was FS and FS didn't speak English.  At least not until she had had time to learn it.

Rachel
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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2006, 12:09:19 PM »
If a judge in AA's court trial believed someone was not speaking the truth,  he could asked the witness to swear an oath.

Each witness told his or her story.  Each individual story is given certain weight in each Judge's mind.  

If a witness, like Bucholz,  tells the court what she heard and then gives a reason why she would know proper Russian, this is added to what already has been said and evidence which follows will either add to this statement or will subtract from it.

Other nurses and doctors gave testimony about AA's ability to speak Russian.

Apparently they (Bucholz, nurses and doctors) were in agreement.

As a Judge,  I would have seen this to be favorable testimony for AA.  Then,  I would ask if there was any evidence to prove AA did not know proper Russian and I, also, might ask AA to speak Russian in the court where someone was brought in who new proper Russian could verify AA did understand and speak Russian.

Those opposed to her knowledge of Russia in the court trial were whom?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152