Author Topic: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier  (Read 92681 times)

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Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #450 on: June 08, 2008, 11:09:08 AM »
Bringing this forward since it got buried

Plays

Page 90, Examination of Kobylinsky:

..."Sometimes in the evening the Emperor used to read aloud while everyone listened. Sometimes plays were staged, usually French or English. Tea was served at eight o'clock and a conversation would take place until eleven but never later than twelve o'clock. After that everybody retired...

"Medicines"

Page 288-289

Here we must record a circumstance which was destined to play an important part in the detection of the murders at Ekaterinburg. Before separating, it had been understood between mother and daughters that they would take measures to safeguard the jewels that had been brought with them from Tsarskoe, worth not less than a million gold rubles.

A letter from the maid Demidova in Ekaterinburg gave the necessary indications. The Grand Duchesses were to 'dispose of the "medicines" as had been agreed'. This meant that the jewels had to be secreted into their clothing in such a way as to escape search (Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria had been searched very thoroughly and brutally) For several days, the Grand Duchesses and their trusted servants worked at the task, sewing up the jewels in their bodices, their hats, and even inside their buttons.


Offline StevenL

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #451 on: June 08, 2008, 12:01:47 PM »
So, it just wasn't one nurse, it was two, plus Dr. Chemnitz, who probably had taken notes as doctors due when talking and treating patients.
In autumn of 1922, AA was  at Clara Peuthert's, and it would have been impossible for Thea Malinovsky to get any information from her.

...Yet this mental patient turned out to be unrelated to the IF after all, so the sundry AA-related "how could she have known...?" questions are actually more akin to the question I recently got from a friend's mother: "How could that fortune teller have known that my husband just died and that I secretly hate my younger sister and that I wanted to be an actress when I was a little girl?"

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #452 on: June 08, 2008, 12:04:05 PM »
One more thing on the "medicines" - it's also more proof that Bux didn't betray the family, because wasn't part of the story that she told the Bolsheviks where they hid the jewels? But they DIDN'T KNOW! If they had they'd have taken them away! They were still unaware as the bullets bounced off the girls due to jewels being inside the bodices, and never found them until after they were dead and disposing of them. So yet another leak in the sinking ship.

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #453 on: June 08, 2008, 12:05:35 PM »
So, it just wasn't one nurse, it was two, plus Dr. Chemnitz, who probably had taken notes as doctors due when talking and treating patients.
In autumn of 1922, AA was  at Clara Peuthert's, and it would have been impossible for Thea Malinovsky to get any information from her.

...Yet this mental patient turned out to be unrelated to the IF after all, so the sundry AA-related "how could she have known...?" questions are actually more akin to the question I recently got from a friend's mother: "How could that fortune teller have known that my husband just died and that I secretly hate my younger sister and that I wanted to be an actress when I was a little girl?"


In both cases, obviously, somebody told her.

It's terrible, but I have seen stories that tells how some 'psychics' and 'mediums' get their info is by sending a random looking person who works for them  into the crowd or line before the show to strike up conversations with members of the potential audience using their own made up 'sad story' to get others to tell theirs, and then the person goes back and reports what they said and it's used during the program. Tragically, heartbroken people who WANT to believe fall for it.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 12:10:25 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #454 on: June 08, 2008, 06:57:30 PM »
...[in part]...
 I personally do not believe that she came out in 1921, and it was either a mistake by the nurse or she was being manipulated by someone to try to change the date which is why she backdated it after it was in the paper and then blamed the paper. I do wonder why anyone would bother to defend her story unless they were also defending the possibility that AA was AN? Really, why else could it matter? Please explain.

There were two nurses and a doctor who told the German court what they knew about AA when AA was in Dalldorf.  Since the three support the same basic information that AA believed she was GD Anastasia,   I don't understand why Annie continues to deny their testimonies.


Annie continued:
Quote
As far as the 'affadavit in German court' there were quite a lot of those, weren't there? I found out from Chat of all people that in Germany a person is not forced to take an oath on the witness stand,(in some trials,this one) it's optional. This IMO makes it far more likely people could get away with being dishonest, or not worrying too much about the real validity of their statement. Again, I would like to know what difference this nurse story could possibly make since she's not AN.

How does Annie  dismiss the two nurses and the doctor's testimonies?  With other testimony?  No.  Annie tells us that it is Annie's opinion that these three people weren't telling the truth because they didn't have to swear an oath on a bible in court in Hamburg during AA's trial and because they were mistaken about the year.  The married couple explained why they believed it was 1921 and not the year reported in the paper.  I followed this up with the information telling us where AA was in the fall of 1922.  The part Annie tells us about these three  not having to swear an oath is true, however,  Annie forgot to tell you the part that when the judges were unsure of a person, they could stop the testimony at any time and  ask the person to swear and oath. (Example: The judges did stop the testimony of the the Wingender sister about the photograph and the dress, Wingender suddenly claimed to be ill and left the court without giving an oath.  The court then had an expert testify as to why the information Wingender gave was not accurate.  The judges weren't a bunch of stooges.]  Since these three (two nurses and the doctor) were not asked to swear and oath,  the judges must have believed what the two nurses and the doctor were telling was believable.

Remember: I don't care where the truth takes me,  I just enjoy the journey.
 
AGRBear



"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #455 on: June 08, 2008, 07:16:19 PM »
So, bear, are you telling me that you believe the nurse story? If you do, you must also believe she was AN, because that would be the only way the nurse story could be the way you say.

Quote
Remember: I don't care where the truth takes me,  I just enjoy the journey.

You keep saying that, yet when you get the truth, you refuse to accept it. That must  mean you will never accept any truth that isn't the result you were hoping for.

You don't want to be like these guys, do you? The 'truthseekers'

http://myspace.com/russellhkelley
« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 07:18:16 PM by Annie »

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #456 on: June 08, 2008, 07:29:40 PM »
Speaking of ChatNoir here is one of his posts:
I don't think we can blame Baron Kleist for "inventing" AA. Already in fall of 1921 Fräulein Unbekannt declared to the nurses at Dalldorf that she was indeed the youngest daughter of the Tsar. Nurse Malinovsky remembered that she was very upset, she spoke of ther sisters and the jewels they had sewn into their clothes in Siberia, of the last night in Ekaterinburg, when "a lady-in-waiting ran about with a cushion in her hands, hiding her face behind it and screaming", and of "the leader of the murderers of the Tsar [who] went straight up to her father with his pistol.....mocking him with it and shooting at him".

..[in part]...

And among all those emigrees, which one of them knew the story about AN wearing her father's longjohns under her bathrobe in a play that the children performed in Tobolsk? A fact that was revealed when a draft lifted up the back of her robe and showed her sturdy legs in the Tsar's long underwear. AA told this story many, many years before her English tutor mentioned it in his book in 1975.

Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

Does THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS by Wilton and Telberg's Collection talk about the "little cushion" or the "longjohns". 

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #457 on: June 08, 2008, 07:45:03 PM »
So, bear, are you telling me that you believe the nurse story? If you do, you must also believe she was AN, because that would be the only way the nurse story could be the way you say.

...[in part]...

The nurses told what AA said when she was with them.  AA wanted them to believe she was GD Anastasia.  I believe AA continued to tell people she was AA to the day she died.  Unlike Annie, I have never believed AA was GD Anastasia.

Since AA wasn't GD Anastasia,  let's talk about what Ra-Ra-Rasputin asked us to discuss:

...[in part]...

So, we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaievna from the DNA results.

But, so many parts of her story were so convincing.  Where did she get her information from? How did she 'know' so many languages? Were people helping her? If so, why? Is her story of how she escaped convincing to anyone, or filled with as many holes as the road to Romania?

Any discussion pertaining to Anna Anderson's story can be discussed here, but please, let's keep this CIVIL and ON TOPIC.

Anna Anderson WAS NOT Anastasia, period.  What we're discussing is the aspects of Anna Anderson's story that remain perplexing to us, and how she may have gained the information that helped to convince so many that she was the real Grand Duchess.  What we DON'T want are arguments about why she was Anastasia, or about how the DNA could have been switched; this thread is simply about Anna Anderson's story and how it can, or cannot be explained.

Let's get discussing!

Rachel
xx

So, back to "little cushions","longjohns" Gilliard,  conspiracy, no conspiracy, and how AA knew  some things which has "perplexed" most of us.

Annie has brought into the discussion THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS published in 1920 in the USA which held some information which may have reached AA at some point in time.   It is my opinion that the book could not have reached AA before she jumped into the canal in Feb. 1920.   

Timeline:
One  nurse  testified that AA claimed she was AA while she was at Dalldorf Asylum in 1920. 

Another nurse  testified AA claimed she was AA in 1921.

 A doctor, who did not say the year, but agreed that AA had also told him that she was GD Anastasia and agreed with his wife,  the second nurse,  that she had told him in 1921 that AA had, told her the same, that AA believed she was GD Anastasia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 08:06:22 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #458 on: June 08, 2008, 08:09:57 PM »
Bottom line: we know AA wasn't AN,therefore anything she 'knew' had to be relayed to her via others. The only speculation left is who did it, when, how, and why.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #459 on: June 09, 2008, 08:50:00 AM »
 Annie,  why oh why would you ever ever direct anyone to this web site?!


....russellhkelley

Think I'm going to "toss my cookies"  (=vomit).... 

[Bear rushes to bathroom and will make no farther comment on such dreckishness].




« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 08:57:17 AM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Annie

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #460 on: June 09, 2008, 04:12:54 PM »
bear, I don't know if that's in the book or not. I don't know who allegedly verified that 'memory' or even if it's true or not. The only thing we do know for sure is that since AA was not AN and therefore never in Tobolsk she didn't recall those events (even if they did happen) herself, and had to get the info elsewhere. I do hope we can find out where that is. As this book has proven, there was quite a lot of info on the IF out there very early in the 1920s.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #461 on: June 09, 2008, 04:59:04 PM »
I think there were some interesting sub topics to be discussed under this thread. We are now many pages into this topic and it seems to have become an Annie versus AGR Bear discussion. I would like to suggest that this topic be broken down into more specific areas if we are in fact going to continue to discuss AA.

Agreed?

Offline Michael HR

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #462 on: June 13, 2008, 10:55:14 AM »
Hello all,

Before I put on my bullet proof jacket I just thought that I would add that as we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia and that everything about Anna Anderson was in effect a fraud over many decades we will now never know who, when, how and where information was given to Anna Anderson. She may have read items in books, been tutored or just picked up on bits and pieces from other peoples conversations. I view her as one of the most clever con artists of the 20th century even if that con is ID theft alone, I won't go into the money assest argument, although I am un decided if she herself knew this or did actually believe she was AN thus showing some mental problems.

Also we forget that many of us wished, hoped and prayed that someone had survived the cellar of blood that night but of course Anna Anderson did such a lot of damage to others reputations, from what I read here, that it is only now we can sort out the mess and try to restore to those who should have their reputations restored and consider who should perhaps lose theirs now?

She should be considered a fraud, dishonest and malicious in her relentless pursuit of the Imperial family members (and other royal houses) over many decades and I am only happy that she never succeeded in her quest. Although the story of her life after the canal is just fascinating and in it's self would make a great movie.   
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Offline Tania+

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #463 on: June 13, 2008, 02:49:57 PM »
Bear I believe that it was Sokolov who done did in the poor small dog. He was a menace to everyone and a liar to boot.
Michael that' a very handsome jacket you are wearing.

Tatiana+
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Offline Michael HR

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Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #464 on: June 13, 2008, 03:29:44 PM »
Hi Tania+,

Yes the dog is intresting from what I remember in that he could not have been deceased as long as he should have been in relation to the condition of the corpse. How sad to think he survived the cellar, if he did, only to be killed later for what ever reason.. So very unfair on an innocent animal but when people were being shot by the bucket load I suppose they did not care about one little devoted dog looking for it's master/Mistress.



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