Author Topic: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier  (Read 101229 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2006, 10:29:17 AM »
Well, it was at least a couple of years AFTER the war when she was looking at the magazines, so . . . I think there was (and is, for that matter) a voracious public appetite for that kind of thing --- gossip about royalty. And perhaps these were not subscriptions maintained by Dalldorf, but cast-offs that people shlepped over to the institution in much the same way that people donated used books and magazines to hospitals back in my day.

In any event, I don't think we will ever know. How could anyone "prove" that a magazine was there, unless there was an in-house, cataloged library of the periodicals, and I doubt there was. This is one of the things that makes Andersen/Schanzkowska's acquisition of general information about the Romanovs so interesting, isn't it?
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2006, 10:29:56 AM »
Quote
Bear,

Please re-read my post. It clearly states that the recollections contained in the book were Andersen/Schanzkowska's, compiled and put into coherent form by Nidda. The book is not an "autobiography" in the sense that she sat and dictated it, or even worked with the ghost writer. It was compiled from things that she had been saying or hinting at for 30 years.

As I said in my post, to call it a "fabrication" is an overstatement. You used that word when you asked about the book. Thanks to the work of the compilers, who included Prince Frederick, it gives an illusion of coherency to her narrative that it did not possess in the telling. Is it a "fabrication"? Well, yes, if the story she told is untrue. So I am not sure what you mean.
Everyone who knew her --- including her supporters --- agreed with the statement that Andersen/Schanzkowska's rescue story emerged in bits and pieces. If we can believe Summers and Mangold, and I do, parts of it were still emerging as late as the 1970s.

As I said in my post, I am simply pointing out that I, Anastasia is not a source of verifiable information until Andersen/Schanzkowska's ghost writer takes up the narrative at Dalldorf, and even then there is a massive amount of partisan interpretation applied to the behavior of people like Olga Alexandrovna and Pierre Gilliard. Once she assumed the identity at Dalldorf, we have evidence of her movements and actions, how
ever, provided by independent witnesses like the nurses.

May I suggest that you obtain the book and read it? It is readily available through your library's interlibrary loan system, free of charge.

 I did read your post.  I didn't disagree with what you voiced,  I merely went to the sources you suggested and quoted the ones which had information.

In an earlier post,  I had mentioned the fact that I do have the book and carefully described who wrote the notes, who translated it and even some words from the cover of the book.

Quote
... [ in part]...

I didn't realize there was a mystery about the book I AM ANASTASIA.  According to my copy, it states that it is an "autobiography of the Grand-Duchess of Russia".  With it are notes by Roland Krug von Nidda and it was translated from German to English by "Oliver Colburn".  My edition adds that the "Translation  and copyright was 1958 by Verling Heinirch Schaffer G.m.b.H. and Michael Joseph Ltd".
 
It was first publish in Germany under the title:
 
ICH, ANASTASIA, ERZAELE and published in England under the title I, ANASTASIA.

There is no date attached to the German book.  What was it?

Added to this is:
 
"Thanks are due to Gleb Botkin for permission to quote material from his book THE WOMAN WHO ROSE AGAIN".
 
My book makes it appear that AA is speaking and there are astericks which divide what AA seems to be telling us and the notes of  Krug von Nidda's.
 
On the book cover it reads: "Anastasia tells the story of her life, first as a happy princess at the court of St. Petersburg, later as a woman nameless and ill in an alien world."  
 
 .....
AGRBear


Thank you for the addtional information.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2006, 10:52:16 AM »
Bear:

You're more than welcome. I am sorry I was confused about your ownership of the book. I inferred from your post that you thought I was looking at a different edition where there was additional information about the authorship. Has I, Anastasia been where you derive your information about the "Story"?

This was actually one of the books that sent me into history as a field of study. One of my teachers took it apart, dissecting it as a source, after I used it in a paper. I was in high school, and had accepted it as the truth because, in essence, it was a published book under her name (i.e Anastasia Nicholaevna's). I was directed to "authenticate" her story. Bear in mind that this was long before the discovery of the gravesite, and there was literally no forensic evidence to suggest that she had died or lived with anything remotely approaching 100% accuracy.

And the story simply cannot be authenticated through conventional historical methodology. It is simply her "word" that this is the way it happened, and unfortunately her "word" has been fatally damaged by the DNA.

 One can make an interesting guess --- setting aside the identity of Andersen as Schanzkowska, indeed setting aside the whole Andersen/Schanzkowska identity theft completely --- that the real Grand Duchess Anastasia may have been alive when the bodies were carried from the room. I have read a public speculation by Penny Wilson in which she makes a case for at least the short-term (as in minutes) survival of Demidova and Marie, while treating Anastasia's as a separate issue. It was grim reading, and because Wilson is a compelling writer, it had a certain persuasiveness. But no one can prove it as anything other than a possibility, and there is just as much evidence --- and even more of a possibility --- that the girl died in the Ipatiev basement. In any event, Andersen/Schanzkowska is ruled out for me.


"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2006, 12:09:52 PM »
I just purchased this book and haven't finished it but hopefully will in the next couple of days when I find some quiet time.

So,  no,  my information about the trek (the cart trip) from Ekaterinburg to southern Russia and into Bucharest wasn't from this book.  I will, when I reach that point, read it carefully to see if there is additional information.

To me,  AA wasn't  just some crazy lady who jumped into a Berlin canal and mention to a nurse that she was one of the Grand Duchesses and pointed at GD Anastasia's photo in some magazine.  I agree with Annie that someone coached her, however, I'm not convinced it was anyone we have read about in any books.

Speaking of magazines,  on p. 22 in Peter Kurth's book, ANASATASIA:

>>...And she bore such a striking resemblance to the Russian imperial family.  So, at least, the nurses thought when they compared her features to photographs of the imperial family printed in a cheap illustrated magazine.  There were many of these publications lying about the aslum in the library and on the tables, some of them dating from as far back as 1914 and others, more recent recounting the sensational news of the murder of the Tsar and his family at Ekaterinburg.<<


>>Nurse Bertha Walz maintained that shen she saw the photographs in front of her Fraeulein Unbekannt  "showed quite an altered behavior".  She became "utterly sad, quite pale and said, 'I know all these.' "<<

Farther down the page is Thea Malinovsky's, a night nurse's,  statement, and in it is the name of the magazine:

>>After she had been sitting with me for about half an hour she said that she wanted to show me something.  She went to her bed and pull a Berliner Illustrierte out from her mattress.  On the cover was a photograph of the Russian imperial family.  She put the magazine down in from of me and asked if I was not struck by something in the picture.    I looked closely at the photograph but didn't know what she was driving at.  Howewver, as I looked longer it occurred to me that Fraeulein Unbekannt bore a distinct resemblace to the youngest of the Tsar's daughters.  But I pretended that I couldn't see anything in particular, whereupon, she pointed to the young girl and asked if I still didn't notice [p. 12] anything.  I said, no.  She asked,  "Then you don't see any resemblance between the two of us?"  Now I had to admit that I did indeed see a resemblance.  Suddenly she got very upset.  I asked her if it was she.  She turned away, not wanting to let out any more.  I told that she shouldn't have come this far unless she was prepared to tell me the rest.<<

I made the title of the magazine in bold print:

>>... Berliner Illustrierte...

Nurse Malinovsky was full of interesting information.  She talked about many things which many anti-AA posters claim AA didn't know until later.  But Malinovsky said she had told her about some of these things, such as the jewels sewin into their clothes, the little cushions held in Demidova's hands on the night of the exeuction.... from 1920 to  1921.

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.  

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2006, 12:43:32 PM »
Quote
Quote
And in the meantime, NObody has managed to tell me how AA knew Lieutenant Arapov.  Any explanations?

Kind regards
Chat Noir

I already addressed this in a previous post, but here goes again: since there will NEVER be any hardcore proof on this since no one left any writings and no one could read minds, I can only offer my best speculations (which will never be good enough for you, dear black cat, I know, but I must try)

In this case, as well as the 'man with the pockets', I believe it was a set-up. How were these people brought to her? There had to be planned meetings, and if so, who sought them out, and how was it all arranged? I find it very likely that she was told who the person was before she met him by someone while in private so she could 'amaze' people in public, or, the person himself was in on the charade, perhaps for a cut of the alleged jackpot? (hey you accuse Ernie and Olga and Gilliard, why is the other side exempt from this accusation?) No matter what, though, we do know for a cold, hard fact that AA was not AN, so, somebody, somehow, told her. Because of this, my explainations are very realistic.

Is there any evidence that anyone told AA about Lieu. Arapov?

Edward Farrows, who was AA's American lawyer, met Arapov in 1929 in Paris. Arapov, who had been Lieutenant Arapov in 1915 and a patient in the hospital in St. Petersburg asked Farrows to ask AA if she was able to give a descripton of him [Arapov].   When Farrow asked AA about Arapov she responded:

p. 275 of Peter Kurth's ANATASIA:

>>The response was quick:  "Does Arapov limp one leg short?"<<

Arapov and AA later met in Berlin and Arapov seem to believe AA was GD Anastasia.

Did Arapov ever change his mind about AA?

Is there any proof that anyone told AA about the "Man with the Pockets", Captain Felix Dassel?

This story is told  on p. 193 of Peter Kurth's book ANASTASIA.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Rebecca

  • Guest
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2006, 01:57:00 PM »
Quote

I'm curious. Are you and Rebecca slinging Swedish back and forth? I read German and I can sorta kinda follow it, which means nothing, I know, as far as Schanzkowska's ability to follow languages she may not have been overly familiar with, but still . . . it's interesting.


Well, it was Swedish from my part and a kind of broken Swedish (comparable to my broken English ;)) from his. I find it very interesting that you were able to follow it since you read German. :) It gives at least a little support to the possibility of understanding related languages (something I was writing about in another thread some time ago).

Offline Louis_Charles

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2006, 03:40:59 PM »
Quote
Quote

I'm curious. Are you and Rebecca slinging Swedish back and forth? I read German and I can sorta kinda follow it, which means nothing, I know, as far as Schanzkowska's ability to follow languages she may not have been overly familiar with, but still . . . it's interesting.


Well, it was Swedish from my part and a kind of broken Swedish (comparable to my broken English ;)) from his. I find it very interesting that you were able to follow it since you read German. :) It gives at least a little support to the possibility of understanding related languages (something I was writing about in another thread some time ago).

I have to admit that it had occured to me as well, and unlike your English, which seems mighty fine to me, my German is rusty from lack of use. Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Louis_Charles »
"Simon --- Classy AND Compassionate!"
   
"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."

Offline Amelie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Seize the Day
    • View Profile
    • Brooke Horn
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #97 on: April 11, 2006, 08:46:59 PM »

Hi  :)

I haven't read any of your comments, there's just soooo many of them.  Please tell me if this has already been discussed as a possibility, for, I know how annoying it is when people repeat what has already been stated.  :)

I heard somewhere, from a television program about the Romanovs a while back, I think it was the History Channel (overall, reliable source), that when excavators (sp) first discovered and performed DNA tests on the remains of Nicholas II that his DNA didn't match that of the other Romanovs.  Testers tried to identify the bones once again, from a different portion of the remains, and found that his DNA did indeed match, making the remains that of Nicholas.  It was concluded that  Nicholas had a very rare condition where he carried 2 sets of DNA. There's some long medical term, and, of course, I can't remember it, but if you've ever heard of it, I'm sure you'll know what I'm carrying on about.  With this condition, embryo's are conceived as twins, but fuse together, becoming one. (this is only one possibility) This rarely happens, making information virtually impossible to acquire.  

Do you think this...condition could be genetically inherited? If so, Nicholas could have passed it on to Anastasia--known to some (not me, as much as I'd like to admit it) as "Anna Anderson." The scientists who performed the DNA tests on Anna Anderson's tissue sample could have err...gotten the wrong piece? (if that's the word)

Besides me, have any of you ever heard of Nicholas having this condition? Do you think he could have had it, or is it just another petty rumor?  Do you think it's a possibility that it if Nicholas carried 2 sets of DNA, his offspring could have?

If you're interested, I'll look for some more info about this "condition"

Amelie  :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by xX_Marilyn_Xx »
"Despite all that has happened, I still believe people truly are good at heart..."~Anne Frank

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #98 on: April 11, 2006, 09:00:03 PM »
Quote
Hi  :)

I haven't read any of your comments, there's just soooo many of them.  Please tell me if this has already been discussed as a possibility, for, I know how annoying it is when people repeat what has already been stated.  :)

I heard somewhere, from a television program about the Romanovs a while back, I think it was the History Channel (overall, reliable source), that when excavators (sp) first discovered and performed DNA tests on the remains of Nicholas II that his DNA didn't match that of the other Romanovs.  Testers tried to identify the bones once again, from a different portion of the remains, and found that his DNA did indeed match, making the remains that of Nicholas.  It was concluded that  Nicholas had a very rare condition where he carried 2 sets of DNA. There's some long medical term, and, of course, I can't remember it, but if you've ever heard of it, I'm sure you'll know what I'm carrying on about.  With this condition, embryo's are conceived as twins, but fuse together, becoming one. (this is only one possibility) This rarely happens, making information virtually impossible to acquire.  

Do you think this...condition could be genetically inherited? If so, Nicholas could have passed it on to Anastasia--known to some (not me, as much as I'd like to admit it) as "Anna Anderson." The scientists who performed the DNA tests on Anna Anderson's tissue sample could have err...gotten the wrong piece? (if that's the word)

Besides me, have any of you ever heard of Nicholas having this condition? Do you think he could have had it, or is it just another petty rumor?  Do you think it's a possibility that it if Nicholas carried 2 sets of DNA, his offspring could have?

If you're interested, I'll look for some more info about this "condition"

Amelie  :D

Amelie,

Nicholas II had heteroplasmy, which is just a simple, albeit rare, single base mutation which was inherited from his mother via mtDNA. I think you are confusing this with "chimera" which is a whole different ball game and has nothing to do with what Nicholas had... And no, there is no way Nicholas could have passed his heteroplasmy to Anastasia or any of his children because it was in his mtDNA and that is only passed through the mother... No, Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, because even if she were a "chimera", which of course she wasn't, her DNA still would have to have matched her parents' DNA, and it definitely did not... Someone already tried to propose this theory and failed... I can assure you, there is absolutely no chance what-so-ever that Anna Anderson was Anastasia, no matter what...

Helen
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by helenazar »

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #99 on: April 12, 2006, 02:20:20 AM »
Quote


It was concluded that  Nicholas had a very rare condition where he carried 2 sets of DNA.

I believe that you have confused "a very rare condition" and "2 sets of DNA" with something else.  Perhaps you may care to clarify what you mean exactly?

Quote

The scientists who performed the DNA tests on Anna Anderson's tissue sample could have err...gotten the wrong piece? (if that's the word)

Every tissue sample that belonged to Mrs Anderson would always offer the same DNA profile. Each of those set of profiles will always be a negative match to the Romanov Family members.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Belochka »


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #100 on: April 12, 2006, 09:57:19 AM »
Lets not forget that Nicholas' heteroplasmy was matched exactly by the known remains of his brother George, which conclusively proved that the remains found were Nicholas.

Offline ordino

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 76
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #101 on: April 12, 2006, 02:49:53 PM »
Amelie, it would be very interesting if you could confirm the laboratory or person which/who made this DNA´s tests.
Thanks. Ordino :)

Offline Forum Admin

  • Administrator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 4665
  • www.alexanderpalace.org
    • View Profile
    • Alexander Palace Time Machine
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #102 on: April 12, 2006, 02:56:10 PM »
Ordino,
That information is already posted on the DNA resources thread.

Offline Amelie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Seize the Day
    • View Profile
    • Brooke Horn
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #103 on: April 12, 2006, 06:57:18 PM »
I want people to know that I in no way believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia.  I was just opening up a new possibility that I didn't think had been debated yet. Though, according to Forum Admin, it already has.  Maybe I shouldn't have brought it up without knowing much about it.  Sorry... :) Anyway though, still quite interesting.


Quote
I believe that you have confused "a very rare condition" and "2 sets of DNA" with something else.  Perhaps you may care to clarify what you mean exactly?

Nicholas had a rare conditon-he carried two sets of DNA.   :-? Is that what you're asking?

Quote
Every tissue sample that belonged to Mrs Anderson would always offer the same DNA profile. Each of those set of profiles will always be a negative match to the Romanov Family members.

Like I have stated, I believe Anastasia died along with her family--and that Anna Anderson was/is still a charlatan.  Yet, I'm pretty sure I heard/read correctly when researchers took tests on the remains of Nicholas for the first time, the DNA didn't match.  Take it, I don't know much about this condition (obviously ::) ) but, from the sounds of it, it seems as if Nicholas had 1 set that matched the Romanovs, and another that didn't.  I need to read up more on this!!

And Ordino, as for the television program, it was a while ago and I don't remember.   However I also did read about Nicholas in a book entitled "The Quest for Anastasia".  It's a library book, and hard to get a handle on, but if you pick it up, I'm sure the author has given the name of the researchers.

And thanks Helen for the correct term---I would have never known given you had not told me!  :)

XOXO
Amelie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by xX_Marilyn_Xx »
"Despite all that has happened, I still believe people truly are good at heart..."~Anne Frank

Offline Annie

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4756
    • View Profile
    • Anna Anderson Exposed!
Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2006, 10:05:49 AM »
I just found this interesting info on the "Lili Dehn" thread. Seems she wasn't a supporter of AA after all!

Quote
Quote
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.

"[ch1053][ch1077][ch1090]. [ch1057] [ch1087][ch1077][ch1088][ch1074][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1074][ch1079][ch1075][ch1083][ch1103][ch1076][ch1072] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1091][ch1079][ch1085][ch1072][ch1102] [ch1077][ch1077]", - [ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1088][ch1091][ch1075][ch1072] [ch1094][ch1072][ch1088][ch1080][ch1094][ch1099], [ch1091][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076][ch1077][ch1074] [ch1089][ch1072][ch1084][ch1086][ch1079][ch1074][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1091]. [ch1042] [ch1090][ch1086][ch1084], [ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1085][ch1080][ch1082][ch1086][ch1080][ch1084] [ch1086][ch1073][ch1088][ch1072][ch1079][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1072][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1103], [ch1090][ch1088][ch1077][ch1079][ch1074][ch1086][ch1084][ch1099][ch1089][ch1083][ch1103][ch1097][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1051][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1084][ch1085][ch1077][ch1074][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] ([ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1090][ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1076][ch1080][ch1083] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1084][ch1077][ch1088][ch1090][ch1080] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1072][ch1085][ch1072][ch1083][ch1080][ch1079] [ch1044][ch1053][ch1050]), ..."

"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."


here is the 'source'

http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/papers/5r/den/st1.htm

It's in Russian. Belochka's translation is posted above.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Annie »