Precedence

Hey everyone. I was just wondering, does anyone know the Order of Precedence at QV's Golden Jubilee in 1887 and her Diamond on in 1897? I presume there was a separate order for men and women. I know Alix and Vicky rode in a coach with the Queen at one of them - but does that mean they followed her in precedence? It's a tricky situation - Vicky was the Queen's eldest daughter, but (I think) all the Queen's daughters are outranked by the wives of her sons. At the same time, Vicky was the German Empress at the Diamond Jubilee, and thus outranked any mere princess or duchess. Anyone know anything about this?

I have the jubilee issues somewhere and I'll try to dig them out. They had lists of the riders and the carriages.

Vicky was the #2 princess in England after Alexandra due to her status as the Princess Royal. So that would've put her as the #3 female (behind QV and Alexandra) in England during the Golden Jubilee. I think she probably moved up at the time of the Diamond Jubilee due to her status as Dowager Empress.

Well, I went to the trunk where I keep issues and loose pages laid out and couldn't find the issues but I got a nice bump on the head when the lid came crashing down on it!  

I did find this in a book though--it was a plan of the seating in Westminster Abbey

                                                              Queen Victoria

Helena    Alexandra    Vicky                                                Bertie    Fritz    Louis Hesse
Marie (Edinburgh) Beatrice Louise                                        Affie      Willy   Arthur
Dona   Ella   Helen (Albany) Louise (Connaught)

Ignore the previous post--I hit send by mistake. I need that delete button unless some nice moderator wants to zap it for me.

I've cut and pasted the whole thing here:

Well, I went to the trunk where I keep issues and loose pages laid out and couldn't find the issues but I got a nice bump on the head when the lid came crashing down on it!  

I did find this in a book though--it was a plan of the seating in Westminster Abbey

                                                              Queen Victoria

Helena    Alexandra    Vicky                                           Bertie    Fritz    Louis Hesse
Marie (Edinburgh) Beatrice Louise                                   Affie      Willy   Arthur
Dona   Ella   Helen (Albany) Louise (Connaught)              Serge    Eddy   Henry (Prussia) George
Victoria (B) Louise (Wales)  Moretta  Charly                    Christian (SH) Ernie  Liko Bernhard
Irene   Maud   Sophie   Toria                                         Lorne   Louis (B)   Alfred Jr   Christle
Mossy   Thora

Other royals were seated inthe Sacrarium near the altar:

Sultan of Persia                                                                                George Greece
Prince Devawongse of Siam                                                               Infante Antonio of Spain
Prince Komatsu of Japan             Louise Coburg   Lililoukawani Hawaii      Duke of Aosta
Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg  HGDss & GDss Mecklenburg-Strelitz   CP Constantine of Greece
Ludwig of Baden                                                                                CP Portugal
Philip Coburg                                                                                     CP Austria
HGD Saxe-Weimar                     Infanta Eulalia    Queen Hawaii           GD Mecklenburg-Strelitz
Prince Hermann Saxe-Weimar                                                           King of Saxony
HGD Mecklenburg-Strelitz                                                                  King of the Belgians
Prince Ludwig Bavaria                CPss Portugal  Queen of Belgians       George I Greece
Duke of S-C-Gotha                                                                            Christian IX

These may be helpful also.  I'm sorry they are not clearer.
From 1897

I have a seating plan for the 1887 Golden Jubilee service at Westminster Abbey also, but the writing is too small to read when scanned.    

Thanks a lot, both of you!   Grace, do those lists come from a magazine or a book?

About Vicky being the #2 princess in England, I'm not sure about that - I always thought the title 'princess royal' conferred no particular status (wasn't Princess Anne outranked by both Diana and Sarah Ferguson?). Then again, if Vicky was being ranked in her capacity as a foreign royal, in 1887 she was the wife of an heir, and in 1897 she was a dowager empress, so would have surely outranked all her sisters and sisters-in-law, except Alix, the second lady of the land in England.

I've got a couple questions as well.  I thought that - in general - imperial rank outranks royal rank, a reigning sovereign outranks anyone else of his title (ie.  a reigning Duke of Hesse would outrank a royal duke of the UK), a crown prince would follow reigning monarchs but preceed other princes, and that people of the exact same status are often ranked according to the age of their reign or title.

I understand why QV is ranked equally with the Empress Frederick.  I also understand (from another thread) the reasons why the Duchess of Edinburgh is ranked low, and why she is listed as "Royal and Imperial" and not "Imperial and Royal".

But - why would the Crown Prince and Crown Princess of Italy outrank the Prince and Princess of Wales that that time?  Was the CP of Italy then serving as regent - thus being technically a ruler rather than an heir apparent in terms of precedence?

And why would the Prince of Japan - an Imperial Highness - rank so low on the list of men?

Thanks a lot, both of you!   Grace, do those lists come from a magazine or a book?

About Vicky being the #2 princess in England, I'm not sure about that - I always thought the title 'princess royal' conferred no particular status (wasn't Princess Anne outranked by both Diana and Sarah Ferguson?). Then again, if Vicky was being ranked in her capacity as a foreign royal, in 1887 she was the wife of an heir, and in 1897 she was a dowager empress, so would have surely outranked all her sisters and sisters-in-law, except Alix, the second lady of the land in England.

Victoria wrote in a letter that Vicky was the #2 princess after Alexandra.

Thanks a lot, both of you!   Grace, do those lists come from a magazine or a book?

They're from the book Life at the Court of Queen Victoria. That's where I got the seating in the Abbey from as well that Grace references.

You can also see the differences in the rankings between the Duchess (Royal Highness) of Teck and the Duke (plain Highness) and how low Queen Mary's (then Duchess of York) brothers were (Serene Highnesses). The same with Louis Battenberg (Serene) and Christle & Albert of Schleswig-Holstein despite being grandsons of the Queen.

Also from the book was the table seating for Her Majesty's Dinner at Buckingham Palace on June 21 1897 (clockwise):

Queen's Table:

Queen Victoria
Prince of Naples
Princess of Wales
GD of Hesse
Ella
Albert of Prussia, Regent of Brunswick
GDss of Mecklenburg-Stretliz
Serge
Ducky
CP of Siam
Vicky
Franz Ferdinand of Austria

Bertie's Table:
Bertie
Helena
GD of Mecklenburg-Strelitz
Frederica Hanover
Prince of Japan
Princess of Bulgaria
Duc d'Auerstadt, Special Ambassador from France
Irene
Waldemar of Denmark
Duchess of Coburg
Henry Prussia
Princess of Naples

Affie's table:
Affie
Louse Connaught
Rupert of Bavaria
Duchess of York
Duke of Oporto
Toria
Hon. Whitelaw Reid (US Special Ambassador)
Charly
Frederick Augustus of Saxony
Louise Fife
Cyril (just one table away from Ducky--hadn't their relationship started already?)
Louise Lorne

Arthur's table:
Arthur
Helen Albany
Duke Albert of Wurttemburg
Maud
CP Montenegro
Prince Charles de Ligne (Belgian Special Ambassador)
Duke of Solomayor (Spanish Special Ambassador)
Monsignor Sambucetti, Archbishop of Corinth (Papal envoy)
HGD of Luxemburg
Moretta
Prince Eugen of Sweden
Beatrice

Duke of York's table:
George
Mossy
Prince of Bulgaria
Victoria Battenberg
Alfred Jr
M de Stall (Russian Ambassador)
His Excellency Chang Ying Hun (China)
Prince Mohammed Ali, Pacha of Egypt
Prince Amir Khan of Persia
Thora
Charles of Denmark
Duchess of Teck

Duke of Cambridge's Table:
DOC
Princess Feodore of Saxe-Meiningen
Philip of Coburg
Edward of Saxe-Weimar
Duke of Teck
Munir Pacha (Turkish envoy)
Count van Lynden
Duchess of Buccleuth (Mistress of Robes)
Aribert of Anhalt
Princess Hatsfeldt (mistress of Robes to Vicky)
Prince Frederick Charles of Hesse (Mossy's husband)
Marie Louise

Christian's table:
Christian
Countess Feodore Gleichen
Hermann of Saxe-Weimar
Count Deyn (Austrian Ambassador)
Louis Battenberg
Herr von Brauer
French Ambassador
Marquess of Salisbury
Mr Hay (US Ambassador)
Italian Ambassador
Archbishop of Finland
The Lord Steward
German Ambassador
Prince Adolph of Schaumburg-Lippe
Princess Victor of Hohenlohe

Lorne's table:
Lorne
Spanish Ambassador
Adolphus of Teck
Lord Chamberlain
Francis of Teck
Baron von Pawel Rammingen (Frederica Hanover's husband)
Turkish Ambassador
Alexander Teck
Korean envoy
Duke of Fife
Albert of Schleswig-Holstein
Countess Victoria Gleichen

I owe you a very big thank you, Grandduchessella.   The Italian royals certainly seem to be ranked highly at the jubilees, don't they?

I read somewhere that Marie Edinburgh outranked all her sisters-in-law (except Alix maybe??) at the Diamond because by then she was the wife of a reigning German duke.

of few images to illustrate the threat

1887

1897

Queen Victoria in her jubilee year 1887.

Queen Victoria in her jubilee year 1897.