Author Topic: Elizabeth I paternity  (Read 16595 times)

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Offline ilyala

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2006, 06:19:59 AM »
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Okay, so obviously there's no absolute proof that Elizabeth was indeed the daughter of Henry. It just irritates me to hear idiocies like that repeated as fact. I'll do my best to persuade her that she's repeating charges that are generally believed to be fabricated and see where we go from there. I'll probably even bring up that Henry married Jane a mere 11 days after Anne's execution. In a rush much?

Along the same lines, wanna hear something else that just burns me? In the textbook it describes Nicholas II as "slightly stupid." Just...argh! >:(

Thanks everyone.

(And now I even know who Smeaton is.)


the only absolute proof i can think of is dna testing the remains of both elizabeth and henry. however, in this particular case, absolute proof should be provided by the one who challenges the general opinion not by the one defending it. and i don't think your teacher has absolute proof either :)
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Offline rjt

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2006, 07:41:52 AM »
Excellent point, ilyala! Thanks.
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2006, 09:42:31 AM »
Not only that but I think that the people of this "green and pleasant land" would be in uproar if there was a rummaging around Elizabeth's bones ;)
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2006, 10:07:48 AM »
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Not only that but I think that the people of this "green and pleasant land" would be in uproar if there was a rummaging around Elizabeth's bones ;)

Gosh yes! I expect there's a tacit ban on doing DNA tests on royal remains, that would open several cans of worms!

However I also expect that even if DNA tests showed for example that Elizabeth and Henry had the same DNA there would still we some who would argue that it wasn't Elizabeth in the tomb - substituted for Etheldreda/illegitimate child of Henry by Protestant extremists - conspiracy theory blah blah (see Anna Anderson discussion). So the authorities are probably right not to get into this discussion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2006, 10:20:33 AM »
Well, yes, and as well there is no reasonable doubt about the paternity as there is with some other royals in different eras.  ;) Elizabeth was almost certainly ( certainty being Dna tests) Henry's daughter.  But some people like conspirarcy theories still....

palatine

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2006, 11:31:35 AM »
Elizabeth did all she could to stress her resemblance to Henry after she became Queen.  She habitually wore red wigs, used oaths that he had used and so forth.  Without a DNA test, nothing can be said with certainty, but I think she was Henry’s daughter.  I also think it’s possible that Anne Boleyn had other lovers besides Henry, but it’s likely that those affairs were over and done with before her relationship with Henry began.  Little is known about Anne’s past, particularly her relatively unsupervised years at the lascivious French court.  It’s been claimed that her sister was one of Francois I’s mistresses, but there’s little evidence about Anne's life there.  Based on what I’ve read about the decadent French court at that time, it’s very hard to believe that she abstained from love affairs.
  
One of the reasons that Elizabeth’s paternity was questioned for many years was because of a rumor that Henry was in fact Anne’s father, which would have made their relationship incestuous.  This rumor seems to have originated with Catholics in England who were desperate to vituperate Henry and Anne; wherever it came from, the rumor was widespread and longstanding, particularly on the Continent.  If people believed that Anne was corrupt enough to embark on an incestuous relationship with Henry, it would have helped them to believe that she might have been unfaithful, whether with Smeaton or her brother, making Elizabeth illegitimate.  This belief would only have been strengthened if Anne had had affairs at the French court before her marriage.  All this might explain why rumors about Elizabeth’s paternity lasted a good long while, and why some modern historians continue to question who her father really was.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by palatine »

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2006, 11:57:28 AM »
Well yes, that is why her paternity was questioned sometimes on the continent. It is true that Anne may have had lovers during her French court years, but after becoming involved with Henry, she was much too bright, and aware of what she wanted to have other lovers. She wanted to be queen, not just his mistress. I think Elizabeth did resemble Henry in many ways. Whatever Anne's past ( and the French court was infamous for that sort of thing), she was most likely faithful to Henry during her years with him. Perhaps the Catholics also like to question Elizabeth's paternity, because it gave them fuel to say she was not the rightful queen of England based on blood as well as religion. Didn't Mary I once say that she regarded Elizabeth as Smeaton's daughter, when Elizabeth was not in favour with her ( most of the time). She was refering to a rumour catholics in particular may have wanted to believe.

palatine

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2006, 12:31:22 PM »
It's my understanding that Mary had sincere doubts about Elizabeth's paternity which she shared with her inner circle and her Habsburg relatives.  To the best of my knowledge, she never publicly and officially declared that Elizabeth was not her half-sister, or rejected her as her heir.  Mary had good reason to despise Anne Boleyn and to think the worst of her, and may well have believed that she'd been unfaithful to Henry.  Lest we forget, Anne treated Mary contemptibly during her time of power, a fact which Anne acknowledged, and repented for, while awaiting execution.    

Her feelings for Anne aside, Mary was fond of Elizabeth in her own way, and must have been reluctant to set her aside as her heir.  If she'd officially and publicly repudiated Elizabeth as her half-sister and recognized Mary Queen of Scots as her heir, she would have been setting up England for war, which she was understandably reluctant to do.

It's quite true that few rumors about Elizabeth's paternity circulated in print in England.  There was no freedom of the press until the reign of William III, so writers were muzzled unless they turned to Continental presses and smuggled books in, a risky business.  However, there can be no doubt that many English Catholics did not believe that Elizabeth was a Tudor, or the rightful queen of England.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by palatine »

Offline Tsarina_Liz

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2006, 12:29:24 AM »
There's two important, insanely simple, reasons to disregard any doubt over Elizabeth's paternity.  First, the idea of incest was so beyond repugnant in the mind of religious persons (in the 16th century, that included almost everyone) it would be adsurd to think that 1) Anne slept with her brother and 2) Henry would have conducted a relationship with Anne if he even had the slightest reason to suspect her paternity.  Henry was almost obsessively careful about relationships and notoriously fanatic about the banalities of religion.  And, as I personally believe, the rumor of George and Anne's relationship was merely the result of Lady Rochford's loathing for her inlaws.  Second, Anne was a lot of things but stupid was not one of them.  There was no way she would put herself or her family in jeopardy by conceiving a bastard.  She wanted the crown too much and knew what Henry was capable of when provoked.  Frankly I don't know why people even bother doubting Elizabeth's paternity in this day and age.  It made sense in a time when she and her mother were unpopular (her mother especially) but today, in an age where Gloriana is legend, it is ridiculous.      
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Offline ilyala

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2006, 03:48:46 AM »
it adds some spice ;). i for one like to explore some simmilar possibilities with kings like louis xiv, for example. but this whole elizabeth thing has never crossed my mind and i sincerely doubt any person who has studied those times thinks elizabeth is the daughter of an incestuous relationship. and, if we're at it, knowing what i know about anne, i wouldn't be so sure about french affairs either. i don't think she was the type of person that would get involved in these things. the fact that her sister was so tainted and she wasn't speaks volumes. i'm sure people were watching her just as much as they were her sister and had something happened it would have been known
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2006, 08:43:35 AM »
Oh yes, I think Anne was a virgin before Henry most likely. Wasn't she betrothed to some nobleman, who it is said she cared for? But although Anne was sophisticated, she wanted to be a wife not a mistess.Had she wanted that route, it would have been open to her. But she didn't. There is very little reason to doubt Elizabeth was Henry's daughter.Catholics I think did believe this, although obviously the fact you coudn't question Elizabeth's paternity in England is a good reason why rumours spread on the continent, and for Catholic sympthaizers it was a helpful accusation. Mary, I think was very ambivalent about her half sister, but believing ill of Anne as she did, she may have found these things more believable than others. One can understand that, although it wasn't the truth.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2006, 10:19:28 AM »
Anne's love was Henry Percy of Northumberland ;)
I don't think that Mary believed that Elizabeth was anything other than the daughter of Henry VIII. In a fit of pique or extreme frustration we all say things we don't really believe, Mary was being human (and female)
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2006, 10:28:36 AM »
Surely Mary was intelligent enough to see that Elizabeth was Henry's daughter.

Firstly, there was the visual evidence of Elizabeth's Henrician looks - which Mary didn't share.

Secondly, Elizabeth was illegitimate in Mary's eyes anyway, as the marriage of her parents was bigamous.

 I suppose though it's possible that in desperation at the end of her reign she may have felt compelled to dig up more anti-Elizabeth dirt. When she realised she was dying and that Philip was determined because of the French marriage of the Queen of Scots to see Elizabeth replace her, it could have been that she decided to throw in the "not Henry's child" story.

It sounds very desperate though (and not very convincing).

Sorry Kim, I just posted much the same as you!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2006, 11:10:54 AM »
Hehe great minds think alike ;)
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Elizabeth I paternity
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2006, 11:51:25 AM »
Yes, Mary most likely just said these things in fits of anger, or frustration towards the end of her reign. I doubt she literally believed them, at least all the time, although she did believe bad of Anne in general. I think common sense would have told her this wsn't true. Elizabeth, even to Mary, must have seemed Henry's daughter.