Author Topic: Armenian Genocide.....  (Read 12038 times)

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Offline rosieposie

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Armenian Genocide.....
« on: May 11, 2006, 06:34:57 AM »
I had watched a program about the Turkish Genocide against the Armenians in 1915.  I was wondering was the Royal families aware of the Genocide?
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David_Pritchard

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2006, 04:15:08 PM »
Surely Nilolai II was informed of the massacre of Armenians by the Ottoman forces. There was in fact some Turkish territory captured by Russian troops in which evidence of the genocide was discovered. Those Armenians that were near the Russian lines and could cross over to safety of course brought first hand accounts of what happened to their families and villages to the Russian intelligence services.

The Imperial Russians had an interesting and strong relationship with the Armenians in that the Armenians often served as surrogate officials for the Russians in the non-Christian areas of the Caucaus Region and into Central Asia (that were seen as unattractive places for Russian bureaucrats to relocate). The oil and gas fields of present day Azerbaidjan was administered by Armenians and Russians while the majority population of Moslem Azeris worked in the oil, gasoline and kerosene refineries.

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Constantinople

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2010, 01:09:24 AM »
Why would Nicholas be informed about the Armenian genocide by the Ottoman forces?  they were enemies.  If he knew it would have been through his allies or through newspapers that would have covered it.

Offline JamesAPrattIII

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2011, 02:44:21 PM »
The Armenian genocide was know throught europe and was a major story in the US. The Turks had a long history of treating the Armenians badly there had been massacres before in 1894-96 and in 1909. I can savely say these stories were carried by the Russian press and Nicholas recieved reports about them. Alexandra also knew about them and no doubt was shocked about them. Olga during WW I who liked to read newspapers ect clearly red about them. Tatiana being head of "The Tatiana Committee for the Relief of War Victems" which helped care for soldiers widows and orphans as well as refuges. No doubt knew about them because Armenian refugees fled to Russian territory. These two probably discusses this in their bedroom and elsewhere. Foe more information go to wikipedia Armenian Genocide or read the book 'The Burning Tigris'

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 08:11:36 PM »
A world leader such as Tsar Nicholas II would, of course, have known of the Armenian massacres taking place.

The Russian Empire bordered on eastern Turkey, and the two powers were at war at the time.

George Ter-Markarian, the Armenian historian and publicist, wrote an account concerning this in Pravoslavnaya Rus', the church newspaper published by Holy Trinity Russian Orthodox Monastery, in Jordanville, NY. (No. 14, July 1968, pp. 6-7.)
It was part of a memorial article on the 50th anniversary of the murder of NII in Ekaterinburg.

Ter-Markarian relates that in the summer of 1915 crowds of exhausted Armenian refugees were massing on the Turkish-Russian border. For the most part, they were elderly people, women and children, and clergymen fleeing certain death. By personal order of Tsar Nicholas II the border was opened and the refugees were allowed to flee to the Russian side. There the troops guarding the border furnished them with what food and clothing they could. Then each refugee was given one silver ruble and a printed pass which allowed them to travel free on public transport anywhere in the Russian Empire for one year. They were to be allowed to take up residence wherever they wanted, and to practice the trade or craft of their choice.

Ter-Markarian estimates that all together more than 350,000 Armenians were saved by the Russians.

(Ter-Markarian was born in 1911 and came to the US in 1951. I do not have any further biographical information on him, other than the articles which appeared under his name in various other publications, such as Novoye Russkoye Slovo, in NYC, etc.)
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RomanovMartyrs

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2012, 12:28:42 PM »
Russia had a long-standing dislike of Turks due to the Ottoman Empire, way before Nicholas II. (Russian author Dostoevsky in the mid-1800s cites some atrocities done to the Bulgarians by the Turks- it was common for Russians to know Southern Slavs who'd escaped the Ottomans with stories to tell.) Perfectly reasonable to assume the Tsar was in some way aware.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2012, 02:58:20 PM »
There is an alternative {Turkish} view that is was no "Armenian Genocide" .
 And, I doubt Nicholas II had much direct influence in those events. He was playing at being  military  commander of an inept army  focusing on the West, not so much on the South. He had already been beaten  in the East. One would think by  then [1915-1917] he would have had a clue that his was a failed leadership.
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Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2012, 08:50:23 PM »

Actually, the Russian Army was relatively successful on the Caucasian front during WW I.

And the Emperor himself had visited the Caucasus and Transcaucasia in Nov. - Dec. of 1914.

A military chronicle of that trip was published in 1915. (We happen to own a copy.)

"The Visit of H. I. M. to the Caucasus in November–December 1914."

«Пребывание Его Императорского Величества на Кавказе в ноябре-декабре 1914г.»

His route of travel: Ekaterinodar, Derbent, Baladzhari, Tiflis (Tbilisi), Kars, Sarikamish, Alexandropol, Elizavetpol, Vladikavkaz, Mineralnie Vody, Rostov-on-Don, Novocherkass.

His visit to Kars, and especially to Sarikamish, put him in the immediate vicinity of the Russo-Turkish border and the active theatre of war.

Sarikamish was soon to be a major battleground between the Russian and Turkish armies (Dec. 1914–Jan. 1915). A battle which the Russians won.

So it would seem that Tsar Nicholas II was sufficiently aware of events in that area.

My purpose in posting the first note was simply to report what Ter-Markarian had recorded. I am not a specialist on the history of WW I.

As for the undeniable fact of the Armenian genocide, perhaps this Forum is not the place to discuss that. There are plenty of sites devoted to the different sides of that issue.
инок Николай

Offline TimM

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2012, 12:03:29 AM »
Quote
There is an alternative {Turkish} view that is was no "Armenian Genocide"

Yeah, and some still say there was no Holocaust, and if you believe that, I have this bridge in Brooklyn for sale.  At least Germany doesn't put people in jail for talking about the Holocaust.

Turkey, on the other hand, punishes people for talking about the Armenian Genocide, nearly a century later.  If there was no genocide, why punish people for talking about it.  Only the guilty cover up the crime.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 12:05:04 AM by TimM »
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2012, 10:43:04 AM »
I did not say I agree with the Turkish position, just that there is one and it is different than the generally accepted version.
 In any case, I agree with Inok N. that this is not the appropriate forum  to discuss such a contentious issue.
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Offline TimM

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2012, 06:25:26 PM »
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I did not say I agree with the Turkish position

I didn't mean to imply that you did, Robert.  Sorry about that.

Still, why won't Turkey come clean and admit what they did?   Surely anyone who was involved in organizing the genocide is long dead by now, so they can't be prosecuted.  Both Germany and Japan have come clean with the atrocities they committed during World War II, Cambodia came clean with the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge, so why doesn't Turkey man up and stop trying to hide the truth about this crime?
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2012, 09:02:25 PM »
Tim, I do not have the answer to that. Turkey is a very complex country with many conflicts.
 I will say, however, that your "sell a bridge" comment was childish and beneath you.
 In MY experience, in Istanbul, I had no problem discussing this issue with both Turks and Armenians. I do not know where you see such suppression. Have you been there ? If so, perhaps your experience is different than mine. I make it a point, In ail my studies, to listen to BOTH sides of a story.
 Genocide is a horrid  topic, but, as I see it, it does not apply to the Turk/Armenian experience. This is like putting oil on troubled waters though.
 Genocide is the elimination of a race, as Hitler aimed to do. To the Turks, this was a population movement to protect their borders. That doe not make it any less an offence, of course, but who wants to be  compared to the Holocaust ? Even Pol Pot was trying to eliminate a class, not a race [equally despicable, I am sure you agree].
 As I said to Inok. I did not wish to expand on this topic. It is complicated; and distasteful. There is already enough of that on this forum.
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Offline TimM

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2012, 11:29:58 PM »
I've stated my case, you've stated yours.  We agree to disagree and move on.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2012, 12:16:45 PM »
Agreed, Tim
 I will once again though, state thatI have never said I agreed with the Turkish position.
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Armenian Genocide.....
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2012, 12:17:41 PM »
In my opinion, what is significant is not what you call the event, but what the event was in practical terms. I do not think we should get hung up on the word 'genocide'. The reality is that the Turks killed some 1 million Armenians, and a large number of other Armenians were forced to flee the country. The term I grew up with is 'the Armenian massacres', and I do not think there is any room for doubt that they happened.

We might also mention the Punjab massacres of 1947, which took place at the time of the partition of India. Estimates of the numbers killed (Sikhs by Muslims and Muslims by Sikhs) range from 250,000 to 2 million. No one talks of genocide, as far as I know, but it doesn't matter.

In both cases we are talking of murder on a huge scale, and that is what matters.

Ann