Author Topic: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'  (Read 3295 times)

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Offline Bernardino

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Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« on: May 26, 2006, 10:15:40 AM »
Hello  :)

If I'm correct the title of Prince to designate the children of a monarch or the other members of a dynasty, was only adopted in Britain in the XVII/XVIII century...

So how were the members of the Royal family in Scotland treated?

Was it just Lord Y and Lady X (of Scotland)?

Was it extensible to the monarch's every descendents?

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2006, 10:44:16 AM »
Well, as far as I know, the monarch and his consort were addressed as His/Her Grace. I would imagine that male children were called by their ducal or comital title, whereas princesses were probably called Lady. I know that Elizabeth, James I's daughter, was called 'First Daughter of Scotland'.
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2006, 04:14:12 AM »
Sounds right to me!
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2006, 10:24:35 AM »
Oh, I forgot to mention, Lady Margaret Douglas (who was the daughter of a Scottish Queen Consort) was called sometimes 'the princess of Scotland'.
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2006, 12:00:05 PM »
Quote
Oh, I forgot to mention, Lady Margaret Douglas (who was the daughter of a Scottish Queen Consort) was called sometimes 'the princess of Scotland'.

However she was certainly not entitled to this appellation, as she was only distantly related (if at all) to the Scottish Royal Family, although she later married a Stewart.

P_L, do you know on what occasion she was called this? I can only imagine it was some kind of joke at the Tudor court, given her grand manner and her slutty behaviour! Along the lines of "Here comes the Princess of Scotland (not)!"
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2006, 01:43:12 PM »
Quote
Quote
Oh, I forgot to mention, Lady Margaret Douglas (who was the daughter of a Scottish Queen Consort) was called sometimes 'the princess of Scotland'.

However she was certainly not entitled to this appellation, as she was only distantly related (if at all) to the Scottish Royal Family, although she later married a Stewart.

Yes indeed, which is why I emphasised that her mother was a queen consort - it's not unlike how Mary Seymour was grandly called 'the Queen's Child'.

Quote
P_L, do you know on what occasion she was called this? I can only imagine it was some kind of joke at the Tudor court, given her grand manner and her slutty behaviour! Along the lines of "Here comes the Princess of Scotland (not)!"

In 'Sisters to the King', Maria Perry says: She was frequently referred to in dispatches as 'the Princess of Scotland' particularly by the Imperial Ambassador, Eustace Chapuys. It was probably just an error, as opposed to some kind of sarcastic insult towards her, however hilarious that would be!  ;D ;)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2006, 02:16:36 PM »
I found this reference on the tudorplace site - referring to the Thomas Howard affair:

Thomas was attainted by Act of parliament and sentenced to be executed; and, technically, lady Margaret was liable for the same punishment. Lord Thomas died in the Tower some months after. The poet Earl of Surrey recalls his uncle's in a poem. Commenting to the Emperor Carlos V on the severity of the measures, Ambassador Chapuys observed that Margaret was blameless, since in her case "copulation had not taken place". Even if it had, he went on drily, the "princess of Scotland" could scarcely be blamed, "seeing the number of domestic examples she has seen and sees daily".

I find it hard to believe that Chapuys really was so dim as to think she was a princess. I find it easier to believe that he was being humorous - which may have escaped Maria Perry (that book again)! Carlos V would have been familiar enough with the marital adventures of Margaret Tudor to know that her daughter was not a princess of Scotland. I can just hear him chortling about the story and Chapuys faux-naif narration!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by bell_the_cat »
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Offline Prince_Lieven

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Re: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2006, 02:25:11 PM »
If you say so!  ;)
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
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Offline Bernardino

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Re: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2006, 11:30:03 AM »
I think in those days calling someone 'prince' or 'princess' depended on the person will...I meen if you wanted to show respect to a very noble person with close connection to the Royal family you could call him prince...maybe because in the Renaissance enlightened people were more aquainted with Latin and the real meaning of the word 'prince' (first one)...

Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Designation of the Scottish 'princes'
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2006, 01:10:20 PM »
Yes, it goes back to Augustus who was "first among equals". Unfortunately everyone wants to be first, which led over time to a devaluation of the term!
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)