Author Topic: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth  (Read 16628 times)

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russiangirl

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Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« on: September 04, 2004, 01:14:24 PM »
I'm reading this book and I've found somethink strange, there is a situation in I-st chapter when Klara Peuthern ask von Schwabe about his anti-Semitism, and he says of course I'm anti-S and he pull out a little SWASTIKA!!!!well it was in march 1922(!!!!!), and I'm not sure swastika means in this time something different!!!!! in the time of Hitler (maybe '30y) it start to be simbol of nazi, Am I right????

Offline Lisa

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2004, 01:34:07 PM »
Oh, yes! I don't think that the swastika was alredy the symbol of anti-semitism (=nazism) in 1922!

Alix and her sister Irene loved this sign. It's a very old symbol of peace (!!!), luck and happiness (!!!)
Here, you can see Irene in 1910, and she wore the swastika


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Lisa »

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2004, 02:56:12 PM »
The Nazi party adopted the swastika as it's party symbol in August 1920.

Offline pushkina

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2004, 08:43:13 PM »
Quote
It's a very old symbol of peace (!!!), luck and happiness (!!!)


The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. Also resurrection and the return of the wheel of life.

Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.

In the 1800s, countries around Germany were growing much larger, forming empires; yet Germany was not a unified country until 1871. To counter the feeling of vulnerability and the stigma of youth, German nationalists in the mid-nineteenth century began to use the swastika, because it had ancient Aryan/Indian origins, to represent a long Germanic/Aryan history.

when i was in iran during the end of the last shah's reign, i was astounded to see swastikas at some of the old ancient installations. i was assured that the swastka had been there before the germans. and indeed, in the 30s the nazis "allied" briefly with the iranians, looking at them as either "big brother aryans" or as "little brother aryas" either way as those who had "lost" their "aryan way of leadership.

By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.

In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.

In ancient times, the direction of the swastika was interchangeable as can be seen on an ancient Chinese silk drawing.

Some cultures in the past had differentiated between the clockwise swastika and the counter-clockwise sauvastika. In these cultures the swastika symbolized health and life while the sauvastika took on a mystical meaning of bad-luck or misfortune.

But since the Nazis use of the swastika, some people are trying to differentiate the two meanings of the swastika by varying its direction - trying to make the clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika mean hate and death while the counter-clockwise version would hold the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.
outrageous, alarming, courageous, charming.

katyaa

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2004, 08:53:01 PM »
Alexandra looked upon it as a symbol of good luck and hope. She carved one in the window at the Ipatiev house. It was not until long after she was gone it sadly took on a sinister meaning. I bet her sister Irene meant it in the same good way Alix did.

russiangirl

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2004, 01:40:05 AM »
Yes but how Von Schwabe could knows in 1922 that swastika would be a simbol of anti-Semitism??????
Or maybe it's only vision of P Kurth?????
I reply what he said:
Klara Peuthern ask von Schwabe about his anti-Semitism, and he says of course I'm anti-S and he pull out a little SWASTIKA!!!! And even NSDAP in 1920 was very little and von Schvabe didn't know about them !!!

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2004, 08:12:05 AM »
Quote



By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.

In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.
-/

because anti -semites already were usin it. read above

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russiangirl

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2004, 08:32:44 AM »
well when in the same time1 person use this sign like a symbol of happines and luck and other as symbol of nationalist how can we know what exactly it means?
before Hitler's time (30') it wasnt well known as anti-semitism symbol I think

rskkiya

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2004, 04:01:10 PM »
To the best of my knowledge the Swastika was popular amongst soldiers on both sides in the First World War as a lucky symbol -- horrific as this may seem to us, it was a bit like a happy or smiley face to many members in that generation.
   Alix was interested in esoteric philosophy, and may well have discovered the symbol thru her studies of eastern mysticism or world religion. She seemed to have known about it well before the war and even before her marriage to N.

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2004, 06:05:01 PM »
Quote
before Hitler's time (30') it wasnt well known as anti-semitism symbol I think


by 1920, it was definitely adopted by hitler and what would become the nazi party.  so by then, it was a symbol for all their beliefs.
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rskkiya

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2004, 09:19:06 AM »
Pushkina...
Did you know that Hitler adopted the Red flag and Swastika after an earlier defunct political party in Germany tried to use it. That party (I am sorry that I can't remember that parties name or platform)was started by a dentist, but it failed to get any attention and a youthful Hitler- noting the dramatic potential of the symbol and the reasonance it might inspire amongst disenchanted army vets like himself - took it over in the early 1920s...
It might be a bit much to connect the nazi's anti-semitism with the anti-semitism expressed by Alix, although this phenomenon was a tragic part of much of European culture at this time.

I am sorry if I have made this into the all swastika discussion thread! :D

R.

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2004, 05:12:05 PM »
We can still turn it into a Peter Kurth "Anastasia" thread!

I read on another thread (Anastasia and Anna Anderson) that, publisher permitting, Peter Kurth might someday bring out an updated version of his book, "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson." I hope this is true and that it will happen sooner rather than later. I still recommend this book to people. You don't have to believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia to enjoy it. I've read it both ways over the years, as a "believer" and a "non-believer," and can testify that it makes no difference to one's reading pleasure... This is a superb biography, exceptionally well written and one of the best in its genre. I wasn't surprised when Kurth came out with a biography on Isadora Duncan, because he is such an artist himself.
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2004, 05:21:32 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly. Peter Kurth is the only one to even come close to convincing me of the AA claim. [I remain unconvinced, however]. And his other work is equally enjoyable.
It is always a pleasure to read his insights.
Robert
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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2004, 08:54:27 PM »
Quote
We can still turn it into a Peter Kurth "Anastasia" thread!

I read on another thread (Anastasia and Anna Anderson) that, publisher permitting, Peter Kurth might someday bring out an updated version of his book, "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson." I hope this is true and that it will happen sooner rather than later. I still recommend this book to people. You don't have to believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia to enjoy it. I've read it both ways over the years, as a "believer" and a "non-believer," and can testify that it makes no difference to one's reading pleasure... This is a superb biography, exceptionally well written and one of the best in its genre. I wasn't surprised when Kurth came out with a biography on Isadora Duncan, because he is such an artist himself.



You are all -- I say this as humbly as I know how, which isn't much, but is still *something* -- much too nice!  My "Anastasia" is now 21 years old.  I do indeed want to update it, and also to give it a less partisan tone, but in order to do this I first have to win the rights back from its publisher -- believe me, I'm working on it -- "a small, still voice crying in the wilderness" against the TimeWarner behemoth -- but, in the end, I think, I'll win.  Thank you all for your kind words.  PK



"It is always true that what seems to be impossible, absolutely excluded, is, in fact, the truth.  This is an unshakeable maxim of human experience." -- H. Hesse

Offline Alexa

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Re: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2004, 01:46:26 PM »
Quote


You are all -- I say this as humbly as I know how, which isn't much, but is still *something* -- much too nice!  My "Anastasia" is now 21 years old.  I do indeed want to update it, and also to give it a less partisan tone, but in order to do this I first have to win the rights back from its publisher -- believe me, I'm working on it -- "a small, still voice crying in the wilderness" against the TimeWarner behemoth -- but, in the end, I think, I'll win.  Thank you all for your kind words.  PK





Good luck with winning the rights back.  I just had my first articl published, and had to give up rights for only a year, and even that felt like I was selling my soul.  Once you do get the rights back, I'd be more than interested to see an updated version.  I first read your book back in 1991, and have to concur with Robert and Elizabeth, and look forward to seeing more.

Alexa