Author Topic: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others  (Read 10574 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2004, 09:12:41 PM »
Is it my imagination or does the middle picture look just like Lenin?  ;)
Quote
Penny sent me three photos of Yurovsky. One early-mid 1918, about the time of the Ekaterinburg imprisonment. The second is Y with his family ca. 1925. The third is Y in Moscow c. 1933-4, fairly shortly before his death.


Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2004, 04:12:57 PM »
Quote
Is it my imagination or does the middle picture look just like Lenin?  ;)



Hmmmmm,  the photo does look like Lenin.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Dashkova

  • Guest
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2004, 04:38:29 PM »
Quote


Hmmmmm,  the photo does look like Lenin.

AGRBear



OMG!  :D  I was thinking it looked like Dr. Botkin!!
**Lenin**?  Please pay a visit to Google images and report back!

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2004, 05:16:34 PM »
The following is what King tells us about Yurovsky's quotes on the missing bodies from the grave in Pig's Meadow:

Quote
Elisabeth-
I haven't yet mastered the art of being able to cut and paste random quotes, but in reply to your post of 18 October, concerning Yurovsky's motivation in possibly lying about the two missing bodies/separate grave:

To me, at least, it is a plausible theory.  You mention a lack of motive, but I see plenty of motive.  First, let's start with the assumption (whether right or wrong, for the sake of argument here) that two bodies were indeed missing when they got to the Koptyaki Forest.  We know Yurovsky sent almost everyone gathered there away from the scene on the pretext of the jewels hidden in clothing.  It is I think equally possible he sent them away because he wanted to narrow the field of witnesses to only those men on whom he could rely.  So, under this hypothesis, whom does Yurovsky lie to?  Not to the few trusted men still there, and we know both he and Ermakov spent the morning of 17 July before a special emergency meeting of the Ural Regional Soviet's Presidium, essentially getting raked over the coals for something-Isai Rodzinsky hints that this was because of "what had happened."  But what had happened?  The murders?  Everyone knew those were coming.  So it had to be something else, something that happened during the murders or immediately after.  I suspect that these uncomfortable interviews concerned the two missing bodies.  Yurovsky doesn't lie to these men-Beloborodov, Goloshchokin, etc.-after all, they're all in this together, with their collective necks hanging out in the wind from having killed everyone aganst Moscow's orders.  He HAS to trust these guys.  But when it comes to Moscow, that's another issue.  He has every reason to lie to Moscow if through his bungling or lack of order two bodies went missing.  What seems to have happened, as far as I'm concerned, is that a few of the principals involved-Ermakov, Yurovsky, Nikulin, Rodzinsky, Sukhorukov, Kudrin-all of these guys have a pow-wow and it's agreed that Moscow can't know they bungled, so they agree to a cover story-that they burnt the missing bodies.  Only this "accepted version" gets considerably tangled as different people tell different versions, from how many were burnt to where and when; all of them only got 1 basic thing in agreement-that bodies were burned.  Which is why I tend to think it's a hasty cover story to protect themselves from Moscow.

Yurovsky certainly wouldn't admit this in his 1920 Note, which he only wrote at the direction of Soviet historian Michael Pokrovsky, and which he knew would be seen by those in power.  So he sticks to the cover story.  Same with his 1934 talk.  But in 1922, when he writes his private memoirs, which he keeps in his family and remain a secret until his son Alexander hands them over to the Soviet Government in the early 1970s, he slips up and says he only tried to burn a single body.  I don't think you can put that down to him being unconcerned about details or the number of victims-having read his 1922 memoir in its entirety, it is very detailed.  Moscow knew how many people had actually been shot-he couldn't add or subtract victims-his mistake was just that, whereas in his 1922 memoir he was quite clear about attempting to burn only one body.

It's possible, though completely unproved, that the grave was opened in 1927-28, but if so, why would Stalin simply remove the two sets of remains buried separately and not obliterate the others?  That doesn't make sense-especially as he already had Yurovsky's 1920 Note which conveniently explained away the two missing bodies should anyone ever look.  All the Soviet government had to do was to produce it and say, "Here's why they're missing!"  Simply removing two, while leaving the other nine, seems illogical.

I suspect, though it's simply a hypothesis, that someone who knew what happened talked-and this started the ball rolling as it were in 1927-28.  After this, the people who would have known either start dropping like flies, being arrested, or suddenly get special government pensions or write absurd memoirs claiming all manner of inaccuracies.

Admittedly, there's no absolute proof that a second grave didn't exist, but nor is there a shred of evidence to support the idea that it did outside of the few memoirs, which contradict each other and make claims unsupported by science.  Given the weight of the evidence, that's why I suspect Yusovsky lied and that Anastasia and Alexei were missing.  And as I have said elsewhere, their absence doesn't equal survival, but without their remains it does mean that their deaths on that the night of 16-17 July, 1918, remain only a theory.

Greg King


AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2004, 02:40:26 PM »
Can you tell me where this pic. of Yurovsky of 1933 was found?

<<The third is Y in Moscow c. 1933-4, fairly shortly before his death. >>

Thanks

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2005, 05:12:40 PM »
There are some differences in various testimonies of Yurovsky and others as to what occured from the 15th to the 18th of July 1918 [N.S.] .  So, how can we show the differences and still discuss the without losing the flow?

I noticed the Timeline threads seem to work out well.  So, let us work with dates and time so we can all be on the same page during our debates which I'm sure will occur.

Perhaps we should start with something simple and upon which most of us can agree.

Let's start the Timeline on 2 July / 15th of July 1918.

A LIFE LONG PASSION by Maylunas and Mironenko: p. 633

2 July/15 July 1918
Yurovsky:

>> I sarted the prepartation already on the 15th, as everything had to be done as quickly as possible.

I decided to use as many men as there were people to be shot, gathered them together and after explaining the task, told them that everything had to be ready so that when we received our final instructions we could carry everything out efficiently.<<

I do not see Maylunas and Mironenko's source.  I checked Yurovsky's 1920 testimony and this starts with the 16th of July.  However, his 1 Feb 1934 does have this statement about the "preparation" on the 15th.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Finelly

  • Guest
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2005, 07:58:07 PM »
Bear, excellent idea to start this thread.  I am not going to have time to delve into my various books on the Romanovs to contribute to the thread until sometime this weekend, but I will do so!

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2005, 11:18:34 AM »
There isn't an entry in Nicholas II's diary and hasn't been since 21 June/4 July.

No entry in Alexandra's dairy.


Anyone have any more information about  2 July/15 July?

AGRBear

PS
Thanks Finelly.  And the more help on this project the better!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2005, 10:43:13 AM »
So, the shooters were brought together.  And they were:

Greg King: >>The shooters were: Yurovsky; Kudrin; Nikulin; Ermakov; Medvedev; Soames; Netrebin; the two Kabanov brothers; and Lacher.  Of them, Yurovsky, Kudrin, Nikulin, Ermakov, Medvedev, and Netrebin were all ethnic Great Russians; Soames and the two Kabanovs were Balts; Lacher was an Austrian, and the only foreign shooter.

This is King and Wilson's list.  In earlier books the list is about the same but different, perhaps do to the lack of informtion.  I'll go and get that list so we can see the difference.

Oh, we must not forget the guards who declined to be shooters.  I'll have to go find their names, too.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2005, 10:47:48 AM »
When the "shooters" were together, they were assigned or choose which of the eleven they would be in charge of shooting/killing.

Edvard Radzinsky's book, The Last Tsar, p. 341-2.  And so I had written:  
"The shooters were and who was listed as their target:  
1. Commandant Yakov Yurovsky - Tsaritsa  
2. Peter Ermakov - Tsar  
3. Nikulin - Alexei & Marie  
4. Mikhail Medvedev (Kudrin) - Tsar's daughter [not named]  
5. Pavel Medvedev - daughter  [not named]  
6-11. Latvians from the CHEKA - finished off the others "

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2005, 11:07:16 AM »
Mangold and Summers'  FILE ON THE TSAR:

pps. 119 to 120:

From Medvedev statement given 21-22 Feb 1919 to White investigators is the following list:

Yurovsky
Yermakov = Emrakov
stranger [tall, blonde about 26 or 26)
Seven Letts

How does his story differ, he tells us that Yurovsky did not tell them about the execution on the 15th but told him/them on  the 16th:

THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinberg and Khrustalev have Medvedev's report and on p. 348 he continues:

"Latvians from the "Latvian comune" were on the lower floor of the Ipatiev house, having moved in there after Yurovsky took up his post as commandant.  There were ten of them.  I don't know any of them by name or surname."

p. 147

>>I took up duty the night of 16 July, and around 8 o'clock the same evening, Commandant Yurovsky ordered me to confiscate all the Nagant revolvers in the detachment and bring them to him.  I took revolvers from those at their posts... brought them to the commandant's office.  Then Yurovsky said to me:  "Today we'll have to shoot everybody.  Warn the detchments so they won't worry if they hear shots."

Many of us assume that Medvedev's story differed because he didn't want the Whites to know his full involvement in the events which occured on the 16th to the 17th of July in the Ipatiev House.  If this is indeed the case, then we have to pick and choose what part of his story is true, fiction and what part he's leaving out because his role in the events.....  

Whatever the truth is,  it appears that we can not trust Pavel Medvedev's statement at full face or in part or ......

So, is there any other eye witnesses who can tell us about the 15th and yuovsky having called them together?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2005, 11:32:37 AM »
Yurovsky's statement 1 Feb 1934:

p. 357 in FATE OF THE ROMANOVS:

"On the morning of 15 July Filipp [Goloshchekik] said that things had to be finished off tomorrow."  "...Nicholas was to be executed and that we should officially announe it, but when it came to the family, then perhaps it would be annnounced, but no one knew yet how, when, and in what manner."

"On the 15th I immmediately undertook preparations, for everything had to be done quickly...."   It's here we learn the following from Yurovsky.  "..the situation arose that two Latvians refused [to partisicpate]-- they didn't have it it them."

Anyone remember who they were and give us a source.

Busy busy day,  so, gotta get going.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Finelly

  • Guest
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2005, 07:12:57 PM »
I located the names of the two individuals in The Fate of the Romanovs, p. 300 of the hard-cover version.

"one of those who refused to shoot was,ironically, Adolf Lepa, commandor of the factory battalion; the other was Andras Verhas, a Hungarian prisoner of war. "  The source is, on p. 591, "Netrebin, in TsDOOSO, f.4, op.1, d.149"

The paragraph continues:  "Having been dismissed, Lepa and Verhas fled to the Popov House across Vomesensky Lane, where the battalion commander spent the night, as Guard Michael Letemin recalled, complaining about the murders."

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2005, 12:16:43 PM »
Thanks Finelly who gave us the answer about who the two guards were who refused to be shooters.

Finelly wrote: >>....Adolf Lepa, commandor of the factory battalion; the other was Andras Verhas, a Hungarian prisoner of war...>>

Is there any other testimony from any of the guards which tells us anything more about  15 July.... ??

AGRBear

PS:
2 July is the  O.S. [Old Style] and N.S. [New Style]  is the 15th of July.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2005, 03:14:45 PM »
I just made a new discovery.

Did you know on the 16th of June the Bolshviks reintroduced "capital punishment".

This was four days after the uncrown Tsar Michael was executed.

Wonder if Michael's execution would have been considered illegal according to the laws on the books if a trial had taken place and declared guilty of crimes against the state.  Under the law life imprisionment would have been the most he could have been given as his sentence for a crime.   After the 16th, the Soviets, if they so chose, could executed Nicholas II under the letter of their newly reinstated law of "captial punishment" if found guilty of crimes against the new Soviet state.

Yes, I know, off topic but I just thought it was interesting tid-bit of history, since there was talk by the Moscow Soviet to have Nicholas II stand trial.

Anyway, I'm still digging around for information about the shooters on the day of the 15th.


Massie writes in THE FINAL CHAPTER p. 6:
>>Two days before the execution, Yurovsky and one of the other executioners, Peter Ermakov...had gone into the forest loooking for a place to bury the bodies.  About 12 miles north of Ekaterinburg in an area of swamps, peat bosgs and abandone mines shafters, there was a place known as the Four Brothers becuase four towering pine trees had once overlooked the site.<<  >>The largest of these, named after a peasant prospector was called Ganin's Pit.  Nearby, other smaller deeper mines were nameless.  It was to this place that Yurovsky brought the bodies.<<

I do not know where Massie gained his information about Yurovsky and Ermakov going together to the Four Brothers on the 15th  [two days before the early morning hours of the 17th of July when it's said the execution took place].

But this doesn't seem right since Yurovsky blamed Ermakov for not knowing where the place was in those early morning hours as they were moving the 11 bodies.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152