?participated mass murders of over 75Thou persons?

[Alex_P, and Belochka]

[size=10]Alex_P, and Belochka, both thought this question deserved to be placed on a new thread. Below is the statement of Alex_P, then my'n, then Belochka's statement. One of the main questions being :
Who participated in the mass murders of over 75,000,000 persons..what ever happened to them?

Alex_P's : : Re: Execution of Members of the Imperial Court
Reply #9 - Jun 10th, 2006, 7:29pm    Off topic, or not off topic, Tania's remarks above are exceptionally pertinent.
 
I, too, have wondered the same....all of the Chekistii, the NKVDistii, the OGPUiiste who participated in  the mass murders of over 75,000,000 persons...what ever happened to them?  It is not exceedingly vulgar that they should be allowed to live out their ripe old ages on some pension somewhere?  For example, the Hungarian-born butcher of Omsk, who murdered 25% of the population, today his entire family lives quite prosperouly in that city, impuniously, but known to all.  I refer to the passage from St. Matthew....
 
Thank you, Tania.  Someone had to finally raise this point.  And it does not deserve to be passed over in silence.  If a new topic is needed, then please let us make it.  But let us discuss this point.  I mean, frankly, if Hitler had a family, and if they had a survived, should they have been allowed to live in near-luxury in the midst of modern Berlin?
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My initial post :Perhaps it is off topic, but I wonder how many others have thought these same thoughts ?
 
"I hope the souls of ALL those involved in the mass murder of Russia are darned for all time!"[/i]
 
Perhaps not very Christian to think, let alone to state, but when I think of how they were murdered, including those in the Russian Church and the many more of wholesale murder of the Russian peoples and children, it is all I can say in closure to all of those murderous lots.
 
God Rest All their Souls of the IF, the innocent peoples, and children of Russia.
Tatiana+
 
PS: he above has been modified, as I was approached by an AP Member this afternoon in private mail , that I had not capitalized, the "C" in Christian, and that if it were not very nice to say, then I should have refrained from doing so.
 
I beg to differ. Silence where people's lives have been taken as savagely as they were in the Russian Revolution, and after, needs to have long term wittness that state from our own tongue, our feelings and a cry of alarm that any peoples should never bear such beastial and savage address of such monstrous acts of mass murder.
 
Silence does nothing, but encourage to date henious actions as were offered to the Russian peoples.The Jewish peoples of the Holocaust did not stay silence. In fact all nations who have suffered extremes of loss of life, have never stayed silent. It is up to us as a peoples of all nations to speak up, speak out against tyrrany of any type, and certainly mass murders. No matter what religion, etc., nobody has the right to kill people, period !
 
If the noose did not get the murderers in life, then from those whose direct legacy of countless lives taken, can not speak out, and state our disdain, then who better can state our feelings ?
 
Might I remind you, that in Dafour, it continues, and silence to a degree remains, without much adeau of direct intervention. I don't think they are keeping silent , and we should not be as well.
 
Note : Over 90 years the Armenian nation has suffered in silence, and still there has been no global concern to bring those murders of innocent lives to judgement of 3/4 of a nation decimated.
 
How long do you think a person, a peoples, or a nation should stay in silence before it is termed OK to speak up, or ever speak out against violence, tyrrany, mass murder ??
Now it's my 3 kopeks !!!!
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Belochka's Post:  
I believe that this discussion should be presented in a separate thread because it goes beyond the physical process of execution, and touches on several issues that include possible remorse or otherwise of the perpetrators and whether the family members should be held to account for the criminal act committed by the family member.  
 
Perhaps Tania should initiate this new line of enquiry?
Margarita
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Tatiana+[/size]

I hope many will respond and disscuss this thread in detail !

[size=10]I'm the lesser of a historian than the many of you, so in defference to all who are, I ask that a new thread be created, but if you don't mind, a copy of my statement to be in direct reference to this or these issues.
 
Silence where human life has been taken, [and in the millions] should never be dimininished by being cloaked all the more in secrecy.
 
In particular, when cleansing any wound, [all the more if life-threatning, and they were]...it should be scoured, and cleansed, and re cleansed until there is no particle of dirt left !
 
Wounds are caused by many types of direct attacks to one's system, but the first priority is to make sure that the person are removed to safety, given all availability of medical attention, and assured that their lives are the first prioroty in any given case as such. Secondly, usually when prepetrators are involved, there is supposedly an understanding that the germ that did the attack [if it is a disease] or even human person who has been the attacker, that they are found, brought to full attention of the authorities, arrested, and or killed.
 
Now that is how we address going after germs, wounds, etc., and those who pose serious threat to humanity, but in reality, what has truly transpired in the case of millions who were murdered in cold blood, as in the case of Armenia ? In the many cases of where genocide in this century has transpired, in the case where justice should mean and be the last word of action ?
 
I look forward to this thread being created, and to the many who are serious enough to not only address these many issues raised, but that human kind, readily be involved in writing letters to the UN and asking, why after 90 years, the world keeps silent about the lives of gentle human beings, as well children, whose only crime it may seem was their name, their religion, their being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  
 
Ye who have eyes, ears, heart and soul, would you keep silent out of ignorance, or that you know too much, or that you are not related, or that it has no bearing on you, or yours ? This matters to all of us,
it affects all of us, you and I, and the whole globe.
 
What keeps human beings from bringing others to justice ? What indeed is that keeps human beings from standing on the front line and making sure, no human being who has murdered is let to go free ?  
 
How does one bring the equate of all human voices, and heart sto stand firmly together to say :
 
'NEVER  MORE' !!!!!
 
 Tatiana+ [/size]

It would seem that the time to speak out about atrocity is while it is happening.  Having said that, I might add that Santanaya was wrong - it isn't those who forget history who are condemned to repeat it, it is those who cannot forgive history who are condemned.  Yes, those who commit terrible crimes should be brought to justice, but too often it is revenge we seek, not justice.

[It IS JUSTICE, that is being sought, not revenge !]

[size=10]Bev, and fellow Members :

Believe me when I say the following : It IS JUSTICE, that is being sought, not revenge !
In the bible it is stated : 'an eye for an eye' !

For many of those whose family members were murdered, and or distant relatives, and governments as was that of the Soviet era, then, how would one approach these atrocities as they transpired, much less, over 80 years of their being in power ?

It is nice enough to repeat statements as you have offered below, but this goes beyond the crimes committed initially, and all through a governments being.

I sincerely would like those who have gone through these losses to bear witness by offering your feelings, and thoughts.

In my family, and extended family, we have faced Lenin, Stalin, the II World War, and after, plus lived in countries that were dominated by the Soviets, and elsewhere, where today, political issues have raised more than eye-brows. And yes, in these issues, lives have been lost, murdered.

For most of the world, who do not live in or through issues as such, it is very easy to quote words, passages, and or offer advice to that of choosing between justice, or avenging the death of loved ones.

I think in all of this, we must considerably look at the premise, that no life at any age is worth being savagely killed, and the non-conscience of the perpetrator, the government, the continued acts of arrogance, and those who continue to act, and run without responsibility. This is totally unacceptable.

A countries laws and whole purpose is supposedly to protect its peoples, its children, disabled most assuredly. Alex_P has already at the start of this thread, expressed how many in many professions were killed needlessly, and how many fled from the ongoing, turmoil, and threat to human freedoms.
We continuiously have seen history repeated over and over in the genocide, and mass murders of many countries, on varying continents.[Few have been brought to justice].

But none has been more horrendous, than that of the loss of lives suffered from the start of the Russian Revolution, to the end of the Soviet collapse. These lives were not only taken through out Russia, but in many sattelite countries it held hostage ! Still to date, nobody has faced justice, or brought to trial !

The voices of the dead will not stay silent, till we the living, and decendents of those murdered souls,are brought justice. Only then will Russia, and those injuried countries start the real healing process.

If you walk with blood on your hands for the time these murders did, you don't have to guess that there has been a murder, or look to that of the murderer's footprints. Their indelible mark of vast  continuious participation of murder incorporated was made, no question in the execution, and mass murders for far too long a time.

Why have they not been brought to justice, and indeed from the point of a world court? These crimes transpired well before even the Holocaust, and right after the Armenian Genocide. Yet neither the Armenian Genocide murders have been brought to justice, nor the murders of the Russian peoples.

Why not ? Where is the conscience of the world then, and now !

The primary need is to know every one of their names, and of every person implicated in participating in any and all murders of helpless human beings. Justice must be served, no question about it !

Tatiana+_

It would seem that the time to speak out about atrocity is while it is happening.  Having said that, I might add that Santanaya was wrong - it isn't those who forget history who are condemned to repeat it, it is those who cannot forgive history who are condemned.  Yes, those who commit terrible crimes should be brought to justice, but to often it is revenge we seek, not justice.

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GuangZhou, PRC
2006.06.21

Dear Tania,

I just came across this very appropriate thread.

Thank you for raising this issue.  Someone had to.  I thank you for the great courage in raising this issue.  I shall gladly participate on this thread.

Who were these henchemen?  Do we know their names?  Yes, in many cases we do.  To the finest details.

Let me just tell one example of this.

In the city of Omsk, Siberia, which is the city where Admiral Kolchak in his advanced state of madness "crowned" himself Emperor...

after the city fell to the godless hordes, the "administration" or should I say "butcher" of the city, was placed in the hands of a Hungarian of some kind who was a great friend of Vladimir Ilyich Blank (his real name, Lenin was the assumed name) who was not a real Russian of any kind, although he professed to be.  That is a historical fact.  Within ten years of his reign of terror, this heretofore Hungarian of some shade criminal had decimated, murdered, butchered, cut up and otherwise annihalted SEVENTY-FIVE percent of the inhabitants of the city of Omsk.  The bodies of his victims were buried up and down the Irtusk River (excuse my spelling, I don't know what it is in English) and still today when the current shifts, or erodes parts of the banks, as it is a swift running river, piles of bones are often encountered or exposed.

Anyway, this goulash-and-schnitzel man, who survived all of Stalin's purges, owing mainly to his efficiency, lived in absolute luxury in one of the "ocabnyakii" he confiscated from the well-to-do in Omsk  (actually a properous Siberian trading city).  He died, in all tranquility, after the war, and was given a great funeral, with Beria in attendance.  All of his stolen goods passed on to his daughter and her 10,000 husbands, as she was much married and more divorced, and she in turn has passed it along to her son who to this very day is living off the ill-gotten goods of the blood-stained hands of his criminal grandfather.

Now where o where is justice?  While the bones of the hundreds of thousands murdered by his grandfather are exposed almost daily along the banks of the river, this refined gentleman says his morning and evening prayers, goes to services and lives in an apartment that dates from 1910 and belonged to one of the wealthiest citizens of Omsk before the Revolution and will not under any circumstances speak of the crimes of his grandfather.

All but all of the major Russian newspapers, thank God, have picked up on this and written long articles about it.

From the Book of Isaiah : "And the Lord heard the prayers of His People, and He comforted them."


All of the best,

Alex P.

[Murder is murder!]

[size=12]Dear AlexP,
Thank you for your finding time to join in this particular thread on "Who participated in the Mass Murders of over 75 thousand human beings?"

For most, reporting, repeating history is just a simplified task, if anything, a footnote. Nevertheless, respectively it is more than history. It is indeed something that we here in the present, pass on to future generations, as well gain hopefully greater perspective of the past. I have more than just sat back and read, and re read many of these threads. It is in itself something in which we may view if one may, how peoples now have their own understanding of how they think history may have been with many commentaries of how they would have responded, and how others should have responded. What they miss entirely is the way in which the psychology was offered to the people, and how it erased all that was in the just rules of any just society.

From your posting alone of yesterday, one may see the maniacal approach of how leadership should never be, let alone those invested today, in just human rights! It is chilling just to read what transpired, yet alone those who may still live with the nightmare of time. For those who live, and remain in vicinities of the mass killings, it can never be forgot, never be erased from anyone's memory. These [/b]butchers[/b] as one can read, killed off 75% of the city, and citizens, plus their children. I am glad you have pointed out that Lenin was not a Russian. He was not, and I had expressed that in an earlier thread, but it did not seem to matter, but to Russians, it is a very important fact . He was an import, not a native, and a heartless one at that.

As you may or may not know, for over 30 years, I have pledged my life to that of human rights, disabled rights, victim’s rights. I cannot just sit here in total silence. I decided if no one wished to broach this travesty of justice, than I should. How on earth did we get to the II WW, and forget the millions of people killed, massacred outright without any conscience of addressing this fate-filled blackness of crime upon crimes? There needs to be more than just newspaper articles, there need to be people who stand on platforms to public arenas, and bring this again to public scrutiny. This cannot be glossed over, not by any human heart!

Somehow, we must make sure that present day Russians, understand how deeply it has affected global history, not just Russia's history. The rape, mass murder, and almost genocide of a peoples, must not be given any excuse. Murder is murder! I do not care who the children are today of those mass murders and butchers. If they are living off the lives of those murdered, plundered, then they must be brought to understand this: To state that they were not responsible, and doubly have it bounce off their conscience, as 'oh well, that is the way it is', it is not. Embarrassment is one thing, but to indignify any human being's life being taken any age, is beyond robbery, when the effects of one's estate goes to the murder, or the murderers family, and to future generations. This cost has been too high! Even if the life of a person with out any estate, has been taken, it is irreverent not to accept some part of the responsibility of the ancestors who remain the butchers of those criminal acts. The appropriate thing is to accept responsibility, so that history can be stated truthfully.

What good is it for this fine man, or woman with polished manners, saying his morning, evening prayers, going to whatever faith, he has decided to be with en masse, living the crème de la crème of life, and allowing others to think that he came by all of this freely? It boils my conscience to think any human being can and does continue under such invalid pretense. These are not valued citizens at all, if this is how many still live today! It is a travesty of justice, and indignifies all that stands for justice due the citizens of this city, and the citizens of Russia, then and now.

I want to start one other thread of importance, and hope that David, Belochka, Jim, you and others will assist me in filling out the importance of this particular content. Please do not let these threads die; they are a very important part of the AP Forum.

It is this. We know many were brutally murdered, raped, sent to prison camps [gulags] etc. However, I know as well, many of these citizens and children were disabled, if not disabled or killed after their arrest, etc.

This transpired long before the Nazis came along and presented euthanasia to the disabled, mentally ill, etc. On the other hand, to that of other ways of killing innocent human beings.

I would like information on how many lives, babies to elderly lost their lives, and or were disabled by these Godless butchers. If there are names, I would like them as well. Remember, there were many women who were pregnant at the time of the revolution and after who were murdered, etc.

I think this is more than an important factor to add to the long list of the butchers of Russia!

Thank you again for joining in this discussion. I look forward to all of your input.

Tatiana+[/size]