Author Topic: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures  (Read 177458 times)

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Offline Olga

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #300 on: March 22, 2005, 04:35:49 AM »
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The reality in America today is that we are what we do.


The world does not revolve around America, nor does the world consist entirely of America.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #301 on: March 22, 2005, 06:46:16 AM »
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I've read this entire thread and I have two things to say:

1. These are extremely personal attacks on Ms Wilson. When one questions someone's work ethic and the quality of one's professional output, it is always personal. The reality in America today is that we are what we do. She provided information to an internet message board--not in a professional, academic forum (although there are some professionals here)--from a source who wishes to remain anonymous, just as any good journalist is wont to do from time to time. There is no crime in this. If she doesn't have proof, then perhaps those who wish to disavow her information should do the research and either prove or disprove it.

2. Why hasn't this thread been locked and those who are hurling personal attacks warned? It is beyond time, in my humble opinion, that this be done.



rjt,

As I mentioned earlier, the reason this is an issue is not because the information that was presented here can't be verified, but because this information is now being accepted and cited as historical fact by some - the reason being that it comes from a professional historian. And since the said professional historian is not a tabloid journalist, then he/she should be able and willing to provide reasonable references for the very controversial information he/she insists is factual (or if he/she does not want to be challenged - simply refrain from posting it). This seems to be the responsible thing to do, considering if this information were coming from anyone else, this would not be a problem in the least, and everyone would just accept it for what it is: theory/speculation  - as opposed to fact.

BTW, Ms Wilson herself is no stranger to extreme personal attacks, public and private, on those who have different ideas than she does, but we won't get into that.

And oh yes, in America (if the world revolved around it, which it doesn't) we still have the freedom of speech (I think?), especially to challenge questionable ideas...

And now we really need to get back on topic.


rskkiya

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #302 on: March 22, 2005, 08:25:50 AM »
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You make my case, Helen.  Just keep your remarks to the ideas and evidence at hand, and forget your commentary on me, my personality and what I "need to try to learn."  It has no place here, and it is beyond impertinent for you to speak to me publicly as you do.  Now, knock it the h43l off.


WHAT? "Beyond Impertinent?"

Penny this is outragious.  Helen A has, to the best of my knowledge, never personally attacked you.  
   PLEASE bear in mind that many people visit this site with equal interest -some are 12 year old girls in love with Nicholas, some are retirees, some students and some are scholars with an amatuer interest in Russian History.
   You are a writer - very nice - but you are not the sole source of all information on Rusian history and the posters here have every right to question your theories and discuss them critically.
   If you feel that we are inpertinent then why do you post your comments here?

I must admit that I find this whole "debate" to be extreamly depressing.
rskkiya

Offline bookworm857158367

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #303 on: March 22, 2005, 08:43:21 AM »
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Scroll down a bit on this article in the Seoul Times to the second picture:  It's of an 1899 De Dion-Bouton tricycle, which must be very like the one George Alexandrovich had...

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=1325

Edited to add:  A couple more pictures, this time of the 1898 model.

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?x9=VEHICLES,+PETROL,+MOTORCYCLES,+DE+DION+BOUTON


Very interesting. Thanks for posting that article and the pictures.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #304 on: March 22, 2005, 08:50:30 AM »
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[I must admit that I find this whole "debate" to be extreamly depressing.
rskkiya


As do I. I thought it had died down a couple days ago as we started discussing his death and his illness. It flared back up though unfortunately. It seems pointless at this point to rehash it all because the points of view of the main players in the discussion are very well know to us at this point. I don't see what else can be accomplished at this point--except for the FA coming in again and I don't think we want _another_ thread locked due to incivility. (And for rjt it hasn't been locked because that's last-ditch and the FA has given a warning already. It's usually reserved for posts being very nasty and believe it or not they haven't yet reached that level). It just beating heads against the wall at this point--the main viewpoints aren't going to be changed.
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline bookworm857158367

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #305 on: March 22, 2005, 08:51:28 AM »
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Yes, we already talked about this possibility earlier in this thread, bookworm. The guy in California apparently is not really interested in proving anything to anyone (I guess he only likes to once in a while say that he is George's descendant), so I doubt that this is going to happen.


Sorry I brought up something that had already been raised. It's also too bad the family in California isn't interested in DNA testing. It would be a fascinating study, regardless of what it turned up.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #306 on: March 22, 2005, 08:56:14 AM »
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It would be a fascinating study, regardless of what it turned up.


I agree! Especially since this is probably the only way we could get a definite answer to this question.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #307 on: March 22, 2005, 08:59:13 AM »
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It seems pointless at this point to rehash it all because the points of view of the main players in the discussion are very well know to us at this point.


I agree! Hopefully they won't be rehashed again after this.

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #308 on: March 22, 2005, 09:06:42 AM »
FA was not here to step in, as this last exchange (SADLY occurring despite my hopes that things had settled down) was well after midnight Texas time. The rumors of my being here reading each post live as they happen 24/7 are only my "propoganda" to keep y'all on your toes  ;D
I was, at that time, actually providing a soft warm bed for the 2 kittens to sleep atop, deep in the arms of Morpheous myself.

Knock it off ladies, and stay on topic, please.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #309 on: March 22, 2005, 10:34:08 AM »
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FA was not here to step in, as this last exchange (SADLY occurring despite my hopes that things had settled down) was well after midnight Texas time. The rumors of my being here reading each post live as they happen 24/7 are only my "propoganda" to keep y'all on your toes  ;D


You mean you're NOT an omniscient being presiding over all of our various threads ready to swoop in at anytime? My illusions have been shattered.  :)
They also serve who only stand and wait--John Milton
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #310 on: March 22, 2005, 11:30:59 AM »
Penny and others who are trying to discover if GD George was married once, twice or not at all,  just ignore any farther comments from those who continue their attacks.  All it does is drive us in crazy circles.

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Am I remembering correctly that this woman was brought to visit with Maria Feodorovna and tell her about George Alexandrovich's last moments?


This is one of the remarks that  I recall reading about GD George.  Do you or anyone else recall the book/books this can be found?

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Scroll down a bit on this article in the Seoul Times to the second picture:  It's of an 1899 De Dion-Bouton tricycle, which must be very like the one George Alexandrovich had...

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=1325

Edited to add:  A couple more pictures, this time of the 1898 model.

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?x9=VEHICLES,+PETROL,+MOTORCYCLES,+DE+DION+BOUTON


Again, your knowledge is greatly appreciated.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #311 on: March 22, 2005, 11:47:05 AM »
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I presume you are referring to "Tsar: The Lost World of Nicholas and Alexandra"?  Peter doesn't quite say what you write above.  On page 40, he writes: "Gossip spread like wildfire, since both of the Georges in Nicholas's company, his brother and his cousin, were homosexual.  There was talk of male brothels and 'unspeakable acts,' and the rumor even got around that George of Greece had played a role in provoking the attack by insulting the honor of a Japanese boy.  This story, unfounded, was favored by Queen Victoria."

Peter clearly says these were rumors-and indeed I've encountered a lot of similar gossip about Prince George of Greece on the trip in a variety of sources.

That Prince George of Greece was gay was well known-he had an enduring relationship with another close royal male relative.

The idea that Grand Duke George Alexandrovich was gay is less easy to sustain, though again there have been a lot of rumors and family gossip.  I suspect Peter, from his close association with many members of the present day Romanov Family, has heard the stories firsthand.

But George Alexandrovich was named a few years back as homosexual in a scholarly article by a respected Russian historian, Simon Karlinsky.  He wrote an article (publication was in something like the Hoover Institute Digest, though I could be wrong on this) called "The Seven Gay Grand Dukes," in which he named George Alexandrovich; Konstantin Konstantinovich; Dimitri Konstantinovich; Serge Alexandrovich; and-if I recall-Dimitri Pavlovich, and two others I cannot remember-I think one was Nicholas Mikhailovich and the other may have been Serge Mikhailovich, though I am not at all certain.  So George Alexandrovich's homosexuality has certainly been asserted by others than Peter Kurth.

But that's balanced again George's time in the Caucasus, where he was said to have contracted not one but two morganatic marriages, the first with a native Caucasian woman in 1893 shortly after arriving at Abbas Touman.  The union, said to have produced a child, was dissolved after two years.  In 1894, he was believed to have contracted a second morganatic marriage, this time with a local woman, Mlle. Orkovska, who bore him two sons and a daughter.  These children, allegedly given the surname of Romanovsky, as well as firm evidence to support either of the two unions, disappeared after the Revolution.  I do know one gentleman who lives in the United States and says he is a grandson, I think.  I've never asked for evidence, but he has provided it to some well-placed friends who have no doubt that his claim is true.  Of course, having offspring doesn't preclude one being gay-witness Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich or Felix Yusupov.  But there are a number of claims about George that will probably never be resolved, given the lack of documentation.

Greg King


Please, this time note the entire post of Greg's  and in it are words like:
"But there are a number of claims about George what will probably never be resolved, given the lack of documentation."

Sometimes, a reader needs to read the entire post before jumping to conclusions and making claims that what has been said was "absolute fact".

Greg: "Gossip spread like wildfire, since both of the Georges in Nicholas's company."

Greg: "...where he was said to have contracted not one but two morganatic marriages..."

Also, one must read the posts around Gregs and not just Greg's post to know what the discussion was.

This is one of the great things about this forum, all  we have to do is click on the poster of the quote and presto, we're at the discussion.

So, for those who don't want to go back to page 1, this was one of my first posts about GD George and morgantic marriages.

AGRBear

"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #312 on: March 22, 2005, 11:50:24 AM »
I added to this with:
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Just my two cents on Grand Duke Georgy's alleged marriage: in the Enciclopedia Universal Europeo Americana, a very reliable and most detailed encyclopaedia published in 70 volumes in Madrid in 1905-1930, which is full of biographical data on royals, it is said that Grand Duke Georgy Alexandrovich "married morganatically princess Orkowska, who gave him three children". When I first read that in the encyclopaedia, I thought it was just a mistake, since the Gotha and other reliable sources made no mention of such wedding. However, reading Mr. Greg King's post, now I guess it was a somehow widespread rumor in the early XXth century.
Who made mlle. Orkowska a princess for the encyclopaedia, that I don't know...


At the time, I was not familiar with this particular encyclopedia.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #313 on: March 22, 2005, 12:03:55 PM »
Here is what Penny wrote about one of the great grandson's of GD George and this sent off the flares from Helen, Annie and others:

-----start of post---

Quote

... in part...

At least one of them did.  A grandson (or great-grandson, I forget which) lives out West here.  This is the man with the impeccable references that Greg mentioned.  There's virtually no doubt that this little family is the real deal.

...


So, he was married and did have  at least one surviving child who lived to be an adult  who had child... who had a child.....

AGRBear

-----end of post----

What I should have said was that  it's possible that GD George was married and that it's possible for him to have one surviving child, I made a statement that "he was married" and had "at least one  child".

And, therein is what all of this back and forth bickering is about.

So, can we move pass all of this and discover any facts that might lead us to the possibility of one or two marriages, one or four children, OR, no marriages, no children, OR, two lovers which produces children ???

To be fair, I pulled the quote in part from something Penny was saying and I used her as a source.  This was unfair to Penny who, now, is being piled on because I took her quote out of contents.  So, now, she has to defend herself and can not because she can't give us her sources.  This means, there will be no DNA tests and no names given.  THEREFORE, we can only move forward with sources we can find.

AGRBear


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #314 on: March 22, 2005, 12:20:38 PM »
Can we assume this is gossip???

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Ugh. Even seeing them makes me feel sugar shock coming on.  :-/  I used to eat these and other sugary candies by the ton when I was a kid but as an adult--yech. I always buy them for my kids because I'm not tempted to eat them (unlike chocolate bunnies  :) )

Here are some of the newspaper abstracts from the time. Again--I'm not vouching for the veracity just showing what some of the headlines/tone of the day were.

LATE GRAND DUKE.
MARQUISE DE FONTENOY
The Washington Post
Jul 16, 1899.
It is an extraordinary fact that although Emperor Nicholas has been on the throne for close upon six years, yet during all that time he never once either visited or even set eyes upon his brother George, who died so suddenly on Monday last.

CAUSE OF CZAREWITCH'S END.; A Bresian Paper Declures It Was Due to a Fall from a Bicycle.
Jul 14, 1899

CZAR'S BROTHER DEAD; Heir Apparent to the Russian Crown Passes Away.
Jul 11, 1899
The Grand Duke George, brother of the Czar, is dead. The Grand Duke George of Russia was born April 27, 1871, and had been in illhealth for a number of years, suffering from consumption.

Czarowitch Dangerously III.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 17, 1896. pg. 10, 1 pgs

Czarewitch's Death Officially Denied.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 1, 1894. pg. 1, 1 pgs

The 'author' of the first abstract was a rather nasty person who wrote for years a very gossipy column. The others I thought were interesting for the fact that obviously there was something known of GA's illness in the outside world and even getting the cause (consumption) right.


AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152