Author Topic: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures  (Read 177264 times)

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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #315 on: March 22, 2005, 12:24:12 PM »
As I put in the original post I don't know about the truthfulness of them--plus they're only abstracts.

The Marquis of Fontenoy wrote all kinds of gossipy things--some with a grain of truth, otherwise seemingly plucked out of nowhere. I guess you could qualify _him_ as gossip.

Then there were stories that dealt with his health--some might have been stories floating around, others reporting on the issue. It showed that at least some stories were out there about his health as opposed to him not being written about at all.

Som eof the other headlines showed how news of GD George's death was received around the world. They are straight news sources--not gossip columns like the MOF's. They may have facts wrong, as obituaries today do even, but they are primary source materials.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #316 on: March 22, 2005, 12:24:59 PM »
Thank you grandduchessella.


Fact about the Fundamental Laws brought up by Marlene:

Quote

...[in part]....

...Alexander III was not a liberal. áHe was an ultra-conservative. áHe tolerated nothing within the family. áHe tightened the Fundamental Laws with an additional clause to Law 188, which says "A person of the Imperial Family who has entered into marriage with a person of a status unequal to his, that is, not belonging to a reigning or ruling house, cannot pass on to that person, or to any posterity that might issue from such a marriage, the rights which belong to members of the Imperial." áAlexander III added a clause to the law "Henceforth, none of the grand dukes or grand duchesses may enter into a marriage with a person of unequal status, that is, not belonging to a royal or ruling house."

Alexander III fought to maintain the status. He was not going to allow morganatic marriages if he could help it.


Does this mean it was absolutely impossible for GD George to have married a woman at any time or any place?

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #317 on: March 22, 2005, 01:20:40 PM »
Quote
Here is what Penny wrote about one of the great grandson's of GD George and this sent off the flares from Helen, Annie and others:



Bear, hello?? Annie has not even been on this thread. Why bring her into this, or are you so used to using her as a scapegoat by now that you can't help it?  ;)

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #318 on: March 22, 2005, 01:22:27 PM »
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Does this mean it was absolutely impossible for GD George to have married a woman at any time or any place?
 


Almost anything is "possible",  but  unless there is some serious evidence, it doesn't mean that it happened...

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #319 on: March 22, 2005, 02:19:27 PM »
Quote
Thank you grandduchessella.


Fact about the Fundamental Laws brought up by Marlene:


Does this mean it was absolutely impossible for GD George to have married a woman at any time or any place?

AGRBear


Yes, it does. It means that no member of the Imperial Family could legally marry in Russia without the Tsar's consent. There was no civil marriage.

The control of dynast's marriages was not considered at the time to be terribly oppressive, by the way.

Had George tried to marry within the Russian Empire, he would have been prevented from so doing.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #320 on: March 22, 2005, 02:47:09 PM »
Quote

Yes, it does. It means that no member of the Imperial Family could legally marry in Russia without the Tsar's consent. There was no civil marriage.

The control of dynast's marriages was not considered at the time to be terribly oppressive, by the way.

Had George tried to marry within the Russian Empire, he would have been prevented from so doing.


And, who was going to stop a strong willed person like GD George if he was in love.  I believe his brother, Michael, was not stopped in marrying his "true love", who was the Tsarvich at the time.

I'm not sure we're talking about "legal marriages" as you suggest according to having waited for permission from Alex. II by GD George even though his marriages are referred as "morgantic marriage" in some sources.

Since most seem to agree that GD George was of strong character and if it's true that he was in love that he would have taken the steps to have married the mother/mothers of his child/children.  And, that he would have provided for them.  And, done of this had to be done in the public eye.

There were other ministers and priests outside the Russian Greek Orthodox church.  Has anyone dug into those records?

AGRBear

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Offline Macedonsky

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #321 on: March 22, 2005, 02:50:20 PM »
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Had George tried to marry within the Russian Empire, he would have been prevented from so doing.

In theory. GD Nicholas Constantinovich married twicely. First marriage was annuled as contracted without permission, second was not considered sacrament because the priest understood it was impossible to wed them against Emperor's will and made just illusion of wedding.

Offline Helen_Azar

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #322 on: March 22, 2005, 04:29:37 PM »
Quote

And, who was going to stop a strong willed person like GD George if he was in love. áI believe his brother, Michael, was not stopped in marrying his "true love", who was the Tsarvich at the time.

I'm not sure we're talking about "legal marriages" as you suggest according to having waited for permission from Alex. II by GD George even though his marriages are referred as "morgantic marriage" in some sources.

Since most seem to agree that GD George was of strong character and if it's true that he was in love that he would have taken the steps to have married the mother/mothers of his child/children. áAnd, that he would have provided for them. áAnd, done of this had to be done in the public eye.

There were other ministers and priests outside the Russian Greek Orthodox church. áHas anyone dug into those records?

AGRBear



Yes, but how were George's marriage and children kept secret for so long as far as even historians were concerned? No one else's morganatic marriage was kept a secret, at least not for very long, but this one was kept secret for something like 100 years, and not only from the public but also from professional historians (except Penny Wilson of course), until it just happened to come out on this forum! Can you explain that?  ???

Offline Eurohistory

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #323 on: March 22, 2005, 04:39:36 PM »
Quote

And, who was going to stop a strong willed person like GD George if he was in love. áI believe his brother, Michael, was not stopped in marrying his "true love", who was the Tsarvich at the time.

I'm not sure we're talking about "legal marriages" as you suggest according to having waited for permission from Alex. II by GD George even though his marriages are referred as "morgantic marriage" in some sources.

Since most seem to agree that GD George was of strong character and if it's true that he was in love that he would have taken the steps to have married the mother/mothers of his child/children. áAnd, that he would have provided for them. áAnd, done of this had to be done in the public eye.

There were other ministers and priests outside the Russian Greek Orthodox church. áHas anyone dug into those records?

AGRBear



"Tsarvich," again, is not the correct word. áNor is "morgantic." áSo let's start with proper word usage here.

You say that anything is possible...I'll give that much...

Let me share some maybes that are surrounded by the realm of possibility...or the world of royalty doo-doo-doo-doo...tah-tah-tah-tah!

Alexander I did not die in 1825, he left Russia and migrated to America where it is possible that he may have had 3 wives, and seven children, or then it is possible that he may not have had any of them...

Rudolf of Austria and Marie Vetsera did not commit suicide you know! áIt is quite possible that they may have migrated to the USA, where Marie died and Rudolf remarried, had several children and his descendants live and thrive in the American Southwest.

Baby Prince Putiatine, second child of Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna Jr did not die. áNot at all. áHe was kept in hiding by Queen Marie of Romania, then when the Communists invaded Romania he was forced to escape to America, where he married, had children, founded what seems, according to proof presented, a rather large family.

All of these are some of the many claims presented to us here at Eurohistory at one time or another by reputable gentlemen and ladies, who of course had proof - and since they were members of good standing in society, why would we doubt them?

doo-doo-doo-doo...tah-tah-tah-tah!

The world of faux royalty thrives in the annals of royal history. áThere have always been and there will always be claimants who take advantage of urban legends to base their claims on.

Now, of course, poor dear George, was a man of strong character...and he was going to be married, whether his parents liked it or not. áHe went about dropping children here and there with at least two women, and everybody indulged him, everyone was sworn to secrecy...hush...and imperial hush was kept, ney, has been kept for more than a century. áThese claims want us to accept that poor dear Grand Duke George Alexandrovich, this adventurous don Juan -or so some would have us believe- did not even bother to mention his four children in his will - oh he provided for them, of course he did! Oh brother...

No mention of any of his children in any of his letter made available to researchers so far. áNo mention of any of these morganatic Romanovs in any of the correspondence of George Alexandrovich's vast Romanov family, or in that of any other royal memoir or correspndence of the time...not a peep...it was a continent-wide general swearing to secrecy...a veritable royal, hush-hush!

Proof is taken from an encyclopedia thatmay have taken the information from an unreliable genealogy based on two books that cannot be found, and which was repeated, by mistake, by a reputable English author who wrote an otherwise masterful biography of George's mother, who would have been the grandmother of these four children, whom she never met, or perhaps even knew anything about...

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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #324 on: March 22, 2005, 05:34:22 PM »
Quote

... but this one was kept secret for something like 100 years, and not only from the public but also from professional historians (except Penny Wilson of course), until it just happened to come out on this forum! Can you explain that?  ???


You are incorrect.  As has been demonstrated elsewhere on this thread, this story has not been "secret for something like 100 years."  

Edited to add:  You should say, "except Penny Wilson and Greg King of course," because we were sitting side-by-side on our "informant"'s lovely living room couch when she dropped this apparent bomb on us...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
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Offline Tsaritsa

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #325 on: March 22, 2005, 11:41:34 PM »
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Nor is "morgantic." áSo let's start with proper word usage here.







What would be the correct term?
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #326 on: March 23, 2005, 12:16:21 AM »
m-o-r-g-a-n-a-t-i-c, perhaps?
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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #327 on: March 23, 2005, 12:17:32 AM »
Quote


What would be the correct term?


The correct term is morganatic. I have no idea what "morgantic" is. A morganatic marriage is one in which the marriage is legal but the two partners have a different status from one another. For example, when Michael Alexandrovich married Natalia Sergievna, he remained a grand duke, while she never became a grand duchess.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by LisaDavidson »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #328 on: March 23, 2005, 12:20:33 AM »
And in the hypothetical case being discussed, the marriage would not have even been legal.
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Offline Tsaritsa

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #329 on: March 23, 2005, 12:55:58 AM »
Thank you.  
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