Author Topic: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures  (Read 177178 times)

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #360 on: March 25, 2005, 12:18:23 PM »
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Bear quoted the FA again but I think the pro-GA's descendants group need to abide by it to.


It was most certainly meant for everyone, in this thread and the AA-FS thread as well.

Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #361 on: March 25, 2005, 12:35:14 PM »
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Why don't you think you should tell us her name?

I and others would  like to know the woman's name if you wish to share.

AGRBear


Bear, I think Dimitry means that he saw the woman's name on the report he read, but didn't write it down or make a point of remembering it, because he didn't think he'd ever be asked for it.  I don't think he's refusing to tell us the name!  :D

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Offline Eurohistory

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #362 on: March 25, 2005, 12:37:08 PM »
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But Arturo, you yourself have given information and then referred to unnamed sources -- both here and on atr.  For what good reason are Greg and I not allowed to do the same?


I have not participated in any ATR discussions in years.  

Anytime anyone has asked me to name a source, I have, when possible in public, when not, in private, done so....EVERY single time.  Besides what I post has not ever been as explosive as the comments posted here, not by you, but by others citing your work.  We, as interested historians, and others, have the right to ask for sourcing, particularly when many of us know Romanov descendants who have never met these claimants, or even ever, ever, heard of these people.

Not ONCE Penny...not ONCE...have I personally attacked you during this thread.  What I have done is ask and discuss the sourcing for these claims.  Again, if  something like this is posted in a public forum, then one  has to be ready to defend one's research, not more, not less. We did not bring you into this discussion, AGRBear did, and you came into it accusing us of destroying your sunday peace...read the posts before then...I was not attacking you...I have no reason to...I do not personally dislike you

I remember some years ago when I questioned a very well-known writer's findings, the author reacted by calling me all sorts of names in public and even going as far as putting my obituary online...real mature..others resort to even worse things...a sad episode to say the least and I lost all respect for this person.


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Look, you people -- I don't know why you are going on and on and around and around about this.  The FA has ruled that my remarks were not out of order.  That should be the end of it, until such time as my George Alexandrovich research returns results.  And let me remind you that I am myself not all that interested in GA -- I am understaking this research, at my own expense, I might add, in order to satisfy not only your questions, but also to end this constant hounding of me.  Why do you do this to me?  If you don't like me -- and I'm not just refering to you, Arturo, though I do now count you among those who are out to make my life miserable here -- then stop the on-board commentary, which just wastes everyone's time; stop the private IMs and emails, which I just ignore -- and write to the FA and ask him to terminate my account.  I have told him that any time he wants me to stop posting, I will.  So, if you don't want me here, if you can't stand that I post stuff that you don't like -- DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE ABOUT IT -- and get me terminated.  Just stop wasting other people's time.


I have no interest, nor ulterior motive either, in making your life "miserable"...what we have done, even before you decided to jump in, is question the veracity of the claims made to you by someone who claims to descend from Grand Duke George Alexandrovich.

If I took everyone who has at one point or another criticised my work, or me personally, as an "enemy," goodness gracious there would be drawers full of them.

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And don't worry -- even if I am terminated, I will still send the results of my George Alexandrovich research to the FA for posting.  I am a person of my word, you see.  And unlike some of you guys, I don't particularly care one way or the other if GA had lovers, wives, children, whatever -- but it is the absolute truth that at least one Romanov believes that he did.


So now it is "at least one Romanov" who believes George Alexandrovich had issue...I thought it had been suggested to have been more?  

That is not what has been posted here.  The fact that you are going about digging further into this issue with George Alexandrovich is great and will only, if that were the very remote case, make this person's claims, perhaps, more credible...but as it stands at the moment, nothing has been proven to accept them.

Arturo Beéche
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Offline Penny_Wilson

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #363 on: March 25, 2005, 01:05:00 PM »
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Anytime anyone has asked me to name a source, I have, when possible in public,


Exactly.  "When possible, in public."  It was not possible to post it in public here.

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when not, in private, done so....


I don't know these people here, Arturo.  Especially those who post under "user names."  Why should I trust them with private information when I don't even know their real names?

In any case, and as an historian, you must know this, when people give us information in private, we must respect that privacy.  Anyone reading this forum now knows that I will always protect a person's privacy -- online or off, in public or in private --  no matter what.  So in the end, I guess it's all good.

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Besides what I post has not ever been as explosive as the comments posted here, not by you, but by others citing your work.  


Am I then responsible for what others write?

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We, as interested historians, and others, have the right to ask for sourcing, particularly when many of us know Romanov descendants who have never met these claimants, or even ever, ever, heard of these people.


And I have the right to refuse to divulge my source, especially if I think that this issue is blown all out of proportion.  And do you know ALL Romanov descendants, Arturo?  And do you know for certain that they would tell you everything about their family business?  When you say that they have never, never heard of these people , I have a hard time believing it, as their existence is stated in several published places -- so they have at least to be aware of the rumors.  My informant is simply one who believes these rumors -- and as Greg said in his original statement, this gentleman has proof.  Proof that neither Greg nor I have seen, but proof that was enough for this lady.  That's all.  This is definitely a case of shooting the messenger.

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Not ONCE Penny...not ONCE...have I personally attacked you during this thread....


Oh, come on, Arturo!  You know you have questioned my professionalism and my abilities as a historian -- if not directly, then indirectly with your snide little comments.

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I was not attacking you...I have no reason to...I do not personally dislike you


Glad to hear it.  So now will you accept my explanation of the reasons why I will not tell you everything you want to know?  Will you now respect me as a historian?  Will you allow me the privilege of making my own decisions whether or not you agree with them?

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I remember some years ago when I questioned a very well-known writer's findings, the author reacted by calling me all sorts of names in public and even going as far as putting my obituary online...real mature..others resort to even worse things...a sad episode to say the least and I lost all respect for this person.


This has nothing to do with me, so I have no idea why you bring it up here.

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I have no interest, nor ulterior motive either, in making your life "miserable"...what we have done, even before you decided to jump in, is question the veracity of the claims made to you by someone who claims to descend from Grand Duke George Alexandrovich.


Then why attack me?  Why question my professionalism and ability as a historian if the issue is really the reliability of the person who told me and Greg?

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So now it is "at least one Romanov" who believes George Alexandrovich had issue...I thought it had been suggested to have bene more?


Not suggested by me.  I have no idea if one or more than one or the whole lot of them believe this.  I have ever only mentioned the lady who told me.  And Greg referenced that the gentlemen in question had proof.  

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That is not what has been posted here.  The fact that you are going about digging further into this issue with George Alexandrovich is great and will only, if that were the very remote case, make this person's claims, perhaps, more credible...but as it stands at the moment, nothing has been proven to accept them.


You don't have to accept them.  You don't even have to accept any proof one way or the other that I might find.  Do you remember the old saying "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it?"  Do you agree with this Arturo?  Because this basic human right is all that I am asking for...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
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Offline Eurohistory

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #364 on: March 25, 2005, 01:15:55 PM »
You have the right to say the sky is mauve, and water bright red, you have the right to ask for coffee instead of water, you have the right to state anything you wish.  But having the right to make statements does not mean that we lose our right to question these statements.

If I go about making the sort of statements that have been made here, then one has to know that one must be prepared to back them up, plain and simple.

As a historian, I personally welcome questions from readers...I do not write gospell truth, and even that can be flawed, but I do not go ballistic when someone dares questions me...it is part of trade we are in.

Arturo Beéche

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #365 on: March 25, 2005, 02:14:51 PM »
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Bear, I think Dimitry means that he saw the woman's name on the report he read, but didn't write it down or make a point of remembering it, because he didn't think he'd ever be asked for it.  I don't think he's refusing to tell us the name!  :D



We're all reading the Enlish language but my interpretation was different.  Funny how that works.  Thanks for clearing this up for me.

I hope Dimitry will give us the woman's name.

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #366 on: March 25, 2005, 03:26:46 PM »
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 doesn't TB leave a male sterile and unable to produce children of his own?


Not in all cases.  My grandfather had it and had kids while he was suffering from it.  He eventually died from it.  

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #367 on: March 25, 2005, 05:36:23 PM »
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Oh for goodness sake!

... but I think the pro-GA's descendants group need to abide by it to.


Sorry  ???
What is "pro-GA's"? I'm so lost

Rskkiya  

PS -Arturo, I just spotted your ealier post - BRAVO!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #368 on: March 25, 2005, 05:49:47 PM »
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I hope Dimitry will give us the woman's name.

Dear AGRBear,

Name of this woman has no interest for me so I skip it when make extracts. I will not be able to share this woman name with anybody in near future. The Russian State Historical Archive is closed for public since March 1 until they finished moving to new location (*). Fund 468, roll 46, file 5.

(*) Their present residence in the former Senate & Synode buildings on the English enbankment of Neva river near the Bronze Horse was considered excessively rich. Putin's intendants need this masterpiece of the classicism much more. Our problem is that President Putin has only two dozen of residencies...  :'(

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #369 on: March 25, 2005, 05:58:07 PM »
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You have the right to say the sky is mauve, and water bright red, you have the right to ask for coffee instead of water, you have the right to state anything you wish.  But having the right to make statements does not mean that we lose our right to question these statements.

If I go about making the sort of statements that have been made here, then one has to know that one must be prepared to back them up, plain and simple.

As a historian, I personally welcome questions from readers...I do not write gospell truth, and even that can be flawed, but I do not go ballistic when someone dares questions me...it is part of trade we are in.

Arturo Beéche



Questions were asked, questions were answered -- but it didn't stop there, did it?

As for being a historian and welcoming questions -- are you saying that I don't welcome questions?  I certainly do -- just not the ones that are geared towards confrontation.  I also don't think anyone here who doesn't know me ought to be throwing stones at my personality -- we all know that the internet is a difficult medium and I have explained why I post defensively.

Look, again, here are the facts:  A family member told Greg and me that she believes that a man on the West Coast of the US is her relative through Grand Duke George Alexandrovich.  This is the truth. She did tell us this.  And I tend to believe her information, because I figure she's a good source.  You are welcome not to.  End of story.  If you (this is anyone "you," not just Arturo) want to know more, then get out and do some research, just like I am.  Then we can compare findings.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Penny_Wilson »
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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #370 on: March 25, 2005, 06:49:43 PM »
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Dear AGRBear,

Name of this woman has no interest for me so I skip it when make extracts. I will not be able to share this woman name with anybody in near future. The Russian State Historical Archive is closed for public since March 1 until they finished moving to new location (*). Fund 468, roll 46, file 5.

(*) Their present residence in the former Senate & Synode buildings on the English enbankment of Neva river near the Bronze Horse was considered excessively rich. Putin's intendants need this masterpiece of the classicism much more. Our problem is that President Putin has only two dozen of residencies...  :'(


If and when you come across this document again, would you be so kind to write down the woman's name and let us know what it is.

Thank you.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #371 on: March 25, 2005, 06:52:01 PM »
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Not in all cases.  My grandfather had it and had kids while he was suffering from it.  He eventually died from it.  


I was going to look back on the post to see who voiced this  same information earlier.  Was it you are someone else?



AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #372 on: March 25, 2005, 07:11:39 PM »
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Sorry  ???
What is "pro-GA's"? I'm so lost

Rskkiya  

PS -Arturo, I just spotted your ealier post - BRAVO!


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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #373 on: March 25, 2005, 07:15:51 PM »
Thanks for the clarification Granduchessella
I do feel quite the idiot...(insert icon of hand bashing dull head here!) ;)

rskkiya :P

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #374 on: March 25, 2005, 07:35:38 PM »
don't worry--it's not the first time my abbreviations have caused confusion.  :)
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