Author Topic: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures  (Read 177252 times)

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Offline hikaru

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #420 on: January 12, 2006, 09:51:48 AM »
A lot of naval officers of those time thought that if
Georgy would be in good health, he might be the Tsar , instead of Nicholas.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #421 on: January 12, 2006, 10:12:47 AM »
I'd written this in a prior thread (but have corrected all my typos  ;) ):

In late 1890, GA was due to accompany NII on his Far East tour. Not long into the trip, however, the first ominous signs of the tuberculosis would appear, though they weren't not recognized as such. It necessitated him, much against his will, in being put off the ship at Bombay for fear that continuing on would cause him harm. She wrote to NII: 'You can't imagine in what anguish I have passed these last few days on account of poor Georgie's condition. In spite of all my reasoning and the good will I had to take things calmly, and to tell myself that it isn't as bad as all that and still less dangerous...I was in a state of terrible anxiety at being too far away to hear news, fearing that something was being hidden from me, and knowing that he was alone without you to take care of him and to keep him in order; for I know that Georgie will listen to no one and believes that it is shameful to look after oneself a little.'

I don't know if this attitude was instilled by AIII but it's a theme that MF would repeat (how embarrassed G was about his physical weakness and having to 'give into' it).

It was believed that this illness was malaria and that once he returned home (though because of fever not directly as it was so cold in Russia but rather go to Greece) it would return. Distressed at being so far away, this delay nonetheless cauesd MF to write 'it was all the same a most disquieting piece of news for us and my heart fell when Papa told me.' Again she writes that she knows this will humiliate G to leave at all but 'he must think of his own good...no argument is possible; we must accept the decision and make him come back. It distresses me very much for him, for no one knows better than I the despair of poor Georgie who will feel humiliated, though there is really nothing humiliating in it, for anyone may fall ill; but he take it that way and this idea is so painful to me.' She hoped to be able to join him if he was obliged to spend any length of time in a better climate as she wouldn't be 'able to stay quietly here, it would be asking too much of me...I have full and unlimited confidence in God and am certain he will do all for the best.'

In Jan 1891 she wrote to N that she is 'so terribly anxious just now, knowing how unwell Georgie has been and how poorly he must be looking. What makes it worse is that I know he never looks after himself properly and never listens to advice.' She implores Nicholas to tell him that he must be careful and listen to advice as he had promised to do and not 'look upon every illness as something to be ashamed of and so hide it. This is too stupid because, even last time, if he had complained soon enough, perhaps his high temperature..and the pain etc. could have been avoided. And Rombach writes to say he had acute bronchitis...which, without proper care could easily have gone to the lungs. I am terribly upset by all this...' She is glad that G has been let off at Bombay to begin the trip home with the stop at Greece but realizes G's 'absolute despair at leaving both you and his dear frigate, above all just now when he was beginning to recover and to feel well; it must have seemed to him useless and exaggerated. But as the fever continued it would have  been criminal to let him go on...as all the doctors were of the opinion that the climate of the tropics was dangerous and impossible for him while the fever lasted.'  

By Feb 1891 G was still ill when he arrives at Greece and the weather so cold that he was leaving for Algiers for several weeks. 'His temperature is still up...the condition is caused by an inflammation of the lung and a pleurisy, with which Georgie was going about the last three months nobody taking any notice of it! I cannot  possibly understand how this could have happened.' She blames his doctor, Smirnoff, for not catching the signs, even if G was hiding them and for Nikolai Nikolaievich  for not exempting him from duty and ordering him to wear flannel as he had promised MF he would. 'Poor Georgie has suffered cruelly from the consequences, not to speak of the terrible anxiety we had to go through.' She still regrets his absence and separation lamenting that for her 'it is terribly sad to know that he is so lonely and that I am unable to join him. I have just had a short letter from him..from which I conclude that he is happy enough at present...he was able to resume his duties on deck.' It was even thought beneficial for him to be out as much as possible in the 'open air which is so much better than the stuffy wardroom and the smoke there.'

In May 1891 MF was at last reunited with G when she journeys to meet him at Livadia en route to St Petersburg and writes to Nicholas that he 'cannot possibly imagine how happy I am to be with my dearest Georgie at last! I nearly fainted with joy...how can I describe my delight at being able to press him to my heart again and to feel him so near after those interminable months of dreadful suspense and anxiety. At first sight he appears to be well...but there is something so sad in his eyes that is stabs me to the heart; it is true, he expression has always been somewhat melancholy, but now it is much, much more so. Apart from that, he is gay and happy and so pleased to be at home with the family again.' For her, his joy confirms her decision to come and meet him early. There's still some worry though as 'emotion still makes his temperature go up and he coughs a little now and then so, obviously, the illness is still there' but it is mixed with hopefulness as 'the dotor is pleased with his condition and says that he can be completely cured if he is well looked after and spends another, or perhaps the next two winters, in Algiers.' Already plans are in the works for him to go to the mountains in August but he's improving and gaining in weight  and his temperature has returned to normal.

G was staying in the Caucuses in Nov 1892 when N was able to spend several weeks with him (including G's name day) which brought him (N) much happiness as the 2 brothers spent many happy times there full of romps and fun. Things would continue on this up and down pattern but gradually worsen. By mid-1894 N would write to MF that he was glad that G 'feels more confident after the conversation with Zakharyin: his morale has a great effect on his general physical condition.' At this point, AIII's health is worsening as well, adding to G's loneliness and MF's despair. 'Thank God he hopes to be able to come to Spala; that keeps up his spirit a little and helps him to bear the great disappointment of not returning...he was so sure of it...Poor Georgie! He was so certain he would be at Xenia's wedding and remain till yours--just think how cruel the disappointment must have been for him! Life is really too sad for him: it is wonderful with what fortitude he bears it, without a moment of complaint. I am deeply grieved by this that the tears come to my eyes when I think of it and of the incessant suffering and sorrow our poor little Georgie has had to bear all through these last four years. Yes, indeed, it is a terrible ordeal and for me and Papa doubly so because we are suffering not only for him but also because it is so terribly hard to see one's child suffer and not to be able to relieve it! But God alone knows why He imposes this heavy cross upon us, and we have to carry its burden with patience and resignation....'

After her widowhood, MF tried to spend more time with G for his sake and her own. They would make a visit to Denmark in August 1895 which would come to a frightening conclusion. She would write to N about a sudden turn for the worse on G's part: 'Yesterday in the garden he expectorated some blood; that frightened me again more than I can tell--the surprise of it was shocking, because he had been so well of late, so happy...it really is too sad and I am utterly miserable about it and grieved to the heart to part with him again, but I wish now he were already safely back [in the Caucuses]...Doctor Chigayeff is very reliable and has Georgie's confidence, which is very fortunate. The haemorrhage, he assures me, does not alarm him much--it is the railway journey he is really very anxious about; that is why he wants to keep Georgie quietly to his bed here till he has quite recovered...Fortunately, he has no temperature and the last two days has been coughing much less...he is as patient and sweet as a lamb...He must not talk, but he likes people to come and see him and to hear them talk. Victoria and Maud are so nice and kind to him--they stay in his room often and humour him as much as they can.'

G would return to the Caucuses and MF again join him in between Olga's birth and the coronation where she found him in good condition (Mar 1896) and they would journey onto the South of France for physical and mental relief. 'Thank God Georgie is better again and spent some time sitting on the balcony..He is so careful now...never does anything imprudent, just sits quietly in his armchair and does not even go out into the garden, although it is so beautifully warm there. I am certain fresh air can do him nothing but good, but I think he is afraid that the slightest movement might upset him, which is quite natural, of course, after having been so ill twice and forced to keep to his bed. But it is more than annoying, as it makes him lead such a secluded life, never leaving his room.'
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by grandduchessella »
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #422 on: January 17, 2006, 10:14:31 AM »
Grand Duke George is often supposed to be a shadowy figure, and he is in the way that he might be mentioned all over, but it is pretty shallow mentions, just he did that, or this,etc. So in this sense he has never been at all shadowy. But we don'nt really know his life or chracter to the depths, and we likely never will, as we do with Nicholas and Alexandra, know as much about him, as we know about them. He died young, and never got his chance to make his impact, which might hot have been much or might have been quite a bit. It is true to say he had potential, and that this might have developed into a ability for things that his other brothers could never have had. Doubtless, he had his own strengths.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #423 on: April 14, 2006, 04:16:18 PM »

Quote from: Jorge Saenz  link=1078465195/0#10 date=1078600788
Just my two cents on Grand Duke Georgy's alleged marriage: in the Enciclopedia Universal Europeo Americana, a very reliable and most detailed encyclopaedia published in 70 volumes in Madrid in 1905-1930, which is full of biographical data on royals, it is said that Grand Duke Georgy Alexandrovich "married morganatically princess Orkowska, who gave him three children". When I first read that in the encyclopaedia, I thought it was just a mistake, since the Gotha and other reliable sources made no mention of such wedding. However, reading Mr. Greg King's post, now I guess it was a somehow widespread rumor in the early XXth century.
Who made mlle. Orkowska a princess for the encyclopaedia, that I don't know...

So, Georg may have had not just one wife but possibly two wives and four children before his death:
After spending his final years remote from the court, Georgy Alexandrovich died at Abas-Tuman on 28 June 1899.

Many posters deny even the possibility that Georg was in any kind of relationship.  One reason was his health but people who contact TB often had children so I'm not sure this is a reason I'm wiling to agree.  Of course, in the final stages,  when too weak or ill to rise up out of his death bed, of course,  then this would not be a a time he would had a relationship with anyone.  Another reasons suggested was that Georg would not have gone against tradition which would have included permission from his father Tsar Alex. III. .  Just because there doesn't appear to be a formal letter giving permission doesn't mean Tsar Alex. III as a man and father would have forbidden his son some happiness for the short time he had to live.

Was Georgi married once or twice?  I don't know.

Was all of this just rumor that was repeated?  I don't know.

It was would interesting to know if any letters between family and Georgi survived and what was said.

AGRBear
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Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #424 on: April 14, 2006, 04:54:05 PM »
Greg King's statement just adds to my curosity about Georgi's life in the Caucasus.

Quote

...[in part]...

...George's time in the Caucasus, where he was said to have contracted not one but two morganatic marriages, the first with a native Caucasian woman in 1893 shortly after arriving at Abbas Touman.  The union, said to have produced a child, was dissolved after two years.  In 1894, he was believed to have contracted a second morganatic marriage, this time with a local woman, Mlle. Orkovska, who bore him two sons and a daughter.  These children, allegedly given the surname of Romanovsky, as well as firm evidence to support either of the two unions, disappeared after the Revolution. ............

Greg King

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #425 on: April 15, 2006, 02:42:04 AM »
[size=14]Mrs. Bear,

I see that you have a new fixation and for a lack of fresh information you are recycling old speculative posts.

I did a search of the word 'orkovska' and found it in hundreds of Polish language web pages, almost everyone of them dealing with the game Dungeons and Dragons or other science fiction games. As I do not possess a Polish dictionary, I will speculate from the text that an 'orkovska' is some sort of imaginary creature.

I also searched variants of this suppossed surname of the Polish mystery bride, Orkovski, Orkowski, Orkovsky, Orkowsky, Orkovskaya, Orlovski, Orlovsky with no luck. I did however find many hundreds of entries for one Prince Dmitri Vassilovich Orlowsky, but he is similar the 'orkovska', meaning a fictional character from Johann Strauss' opera Die Fledermaus.

I do not believe that it would have been possible for a Tsesarevich Grand Duke to hide two secret wives and four secret children or for this secret to have remained as such after his death.

David[/size]

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #426 on: April 15, 2006, 10:01:53 AM »
The problem with dredging up old threads is that so much of this has already been discussed. As to the alleged marriages of GD George and the alleged children, here's the Reader's Digest condensed version from this thread:

1. There were in fact rumors about these marriages circulating in Imperial Russia. However, there were many rumors about the sexual behavior of the Imperial Family and many of these proved to be false. Examples - Alexandra being Rasputin's mistress and George's good Samaritan being one of the "wives".

2. There is no documented evidence of these wives or these children.

3. A current member of the Family apparently said they believe that George had children. However, that family member has no evidence to support this belief.

4. I have researched in particular George's illness and death. I consulted medical professionals. In their opinion, without getting too graphic, they do not believe he would have been physically capable of the regular sexual relations one would associate with one wife, let alone two, or of siring one child, let alone four, during the time period rumored.

5. In spite of the evidence I have collected and reported here - ahead of publication, I might add, and the lack of the documented evidence of these children and wives, our AGR Bear remains "curious". You gotta love her.

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #427 on: April 19, 2006, 11:37:41 AM »
Well, it is unlikely he had any relationships there ending in marriage, children or both. His health, tradition, no documented evidence beyond a doubt, and the fact that rumours like these where always rather common, goor or not, true or not. I think there is another thread somewhere that harps on this topic too, when it seems there isn't any evidence. But in some ways we don't know that much about George, and his life, and what he was like. Might, if he had lived to become Tsar, the monarchy have been saved? Perhaps, but how can we evaluate this? By knowing what he was like, not debating rumours about him. Perhaps because he was a bit shadowy due to his early death,  bad health, and being away from Russia during the last years of his life, is the reason we even debate things like this.

Offline Yseult

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #428 on: April 19, 2006, 03:24:09 PM »
Can I share with you one idea that flies through my mind as I was reading this thread?

Here in Spain, we often say: "Cuando el río suena, agua lleva". It means that rumours usually have some connection with the truth. Not always, of course, but usually. One exemple: all the gossip about Alexandra and Rasputin being lovers. We know they were not lovers, but we know also that the empress depended so much on the false starets because he could release little Alexei from a deep, deep suffer. People, at this time, had not info about the illness of the little tsarevich and how much the situation of her son hurted the empress, so, as they could not understand the relationship between Alexandra and the starets, they imagined a romance.

It could be that George never had two wives, neither four sons, but...could it be that he had a woman so close to him that people gossiped about secret marriages and babies? As I was reading "Little Mother of Russia" I was so impressed about the isolation and loneliness of George, so I suppose that if the young grand duke had a romance with a girl, the family could understand it and managed it with great care.

(Sorry for my bad english).


Offline imperial angel

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #429 on: April 20, 2006, 10:18:36 AM »
That is possible, I woudn't rule that out. Thanks for sharing with us. I agree that there is usually something to suggest a rumour, either a sitiuation that suggests something more that is not said, and hence the rumour, or something that someone thinks needs further explanation, that they percieve as unknown or shadowy, even if there is nothing there. Perhaps your theory could explain it. I certainly never read about any wives or children of Grand Duke George's before this thread, and perhaps another one. It is has been speculated as well that Gtand Duke George may have been homosexual; one source even calls him so, but again, there isn't any hard evidence, just rumour, and speculation.

Offline RealAnastasia

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #430 on: April 21, 2006, 12:18:12 AM »
Quote
Can I share with you one idea that flies through my mind as I was reading this thread?

Here in Spain, we often say: "Cuando el río suena, agua lleva". It means that rumours usually have some connection with the truth. Not always, of course, but usually. One exemple: all the gossip about Alexandra and Rasputin being lovers. We know they were not lovers, but we know also that the empress depended so much on the false starets because he could release little Alexei from a deep, deep suffer. People, at this time, had not info about the illness of the little tsarevich and how much the situation of her son hurted the empress, so, as they could not understand the relationship between Alexandra and the starets, they imagined a romance.

It could be that George never had two wives, neither four sons, but...could it be that he had a woman so close to him that people gossiped about secret marriages and babies? As I was reading "Little Mother of Russia" I was so impressed about the isolation and loneliness of George, so I suppose that if the young grand duke had a romance with a girl, the family could understand it and managed it with great care.

(Sorry for my bad english).



You said it wonderfully, Yseult. Something, the truth is between the extremes. I think (but it's only an opinion) that Georgy DIDN'T have any child, nor a wife. But perhaps he loved a woman deeply, who took care of him and loved him too. Is it was the case (and I do not see any sin in this kind of relationships since they are not promiscuous), people could have started some gossips.

Gossips, as you know, could be very close to the truth. But they ARE NOT the truth.

RealAnastasia.

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #431 on: April 21, 2006, 08:22:05 AM »
Yes, it's just my opinion as well, that it's unlikely that Prince George had a wife or children, but that doesn't rule out anything else. It would be rather surprising, even considering his health, if at one time or another, he  didn't care for somebody, perhaps deeply. He must have lonely away from his family, not that there is any hard evidence of anything. There could be some truth to this is rumour, or perhaps not. But it interesting to speculate how this started, if in fact there could be a grain of truth in it.

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #432 on: April 24, 2006, 11:34:25 PM »
Evidently, there are members of the Romanov family who expressed that they believed GD George was married and did have children.  Since I am not privy to  their knowledge,  should I believe them?

According to Greg King and PennyWilson,  they have heard GD George was married, did have children and descendents, who, now, live somewhere in CA.   When Greg and Penny were asked who had told them this story,  they could not name their source /sources,  however, they did say the source/sources was/were reliable.

Here on this thread, FA has explained in his post that he has been privy to information  [not this story but others] and he has been  unable to disclose his source.  And, he believed due to Greg's and Penny's good reputation,  that the information they have given us is true.

It is true, however, since there is no known official records revealed to the public,  we [myself, FA and those of us posting these days] cannot officially state George was married once or twice or that he had one or more children.

So, where would be place the information?  Should it be on the list of "fact"  or "rumor"?

I have my own inside information which I consider reliable.  Like Greg and Penny,  I cannot reveal my source.  However,  I find it interesting that their story and the story I heard are the same.  Still,  heresay doesn't fly very far if one had to go to court and make any kind of claim.

Lisa may be quite right about George's illness on the times which she quotes from her sources which I believe are from books and diaries.  I've never dug into this subject.  I've no knowledge about who sent letters to whom and what they said.  But is this enough proof?  No.  

Done of us have the right to  demand DNA/mtDNA as proof.  For all we know, this may have already been done.  If  such test have not been made, this decision is  the royal family's to make when they think there is a need.

One thing I've learned these last 63 years is:  Not everything that occurs in a royal family is public knowledge.   True, today it's almost impossible for royality to have secrets but we're NOT talking about now we're talking about  the early 1900s, about a man who was off in a "No-Where-Place"  in Russia ruled by a Tsar.  

As for digging up old threads,  I didn't know that we couldn't continue discussions on old threads.

However, Lisa is right,  there is not much else to discuss, because we officially don't know anything.

Offical or not,  I still find GD George's life interesting, as well as the fact that the woman,  whom some believe was GD George's wife, was taken to GD George's mother who saw the woman in private.  

This mystery woman may not have been the wife but a stranger who had found GD George who had been injuried in a moter cycle accident....

Yes, a motor cycle accident.  A man who we're told was too ill to rise out of his death bed who in real life  wasn't in bed at all but on a motor cycle.

True,  GD George would probably have died of TB but we don't know if he would have lasted a day, a week, a month, a year or years had he not have been injuried in the motor cycle accident.

Bear's Conclusion:   I don't know the truth.  The people who need to know know.  My only thoughts are that I hope GD George was not alone and was happy in his last days of life.

AGRBear

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

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Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #433 on: April 25, 2006, 12:54:45 AM »
The woman who met with Maria Feodorovna was indeed the good Samaritan who came upon George and his motorcycle. She was not his wife, and was never rumored or suspected of being his wife. I have stated this many times on George threads, in case anyone is keeping score.

George did not die of a motorcycle crash. George hemmoraged while riding his motorcycle. This is not my opinion, this is per a physician I consulted along with the information that was released about his death. I have also stated this on several occasions.

It was also several physician's opinion, and not my own, that George was not physically capable of sustaining a normal adult sexual relationship, be it hetrosexual or bisexual. Again, I have stated this several times on this Forum.

If anyone has any interest whatsoever in reading what I wrote about George and will eventually be published in "The Grand Dukes" after my having to reveal and repeat (ad nauseum) my research, God love you. I guess I would prefer people know the truth about George when faced with the choice.

Offline Kevin From Australia

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #434 on: April 25, 2006, 02:30:17 AM »
Quote
If anyone has any interest whatsoever in reading what I wrote about George and will eventually be published in "The Grand Dukes" after my having to reveal and repeat (ad nauseum) my research, God love you. I guess I would prefer people know the truth about George when faced with the choice.


I for one Lisa will be buying the book when it's published because of your piece on George Alexandrovitch!!!!
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