Author Topic: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures  (Read 172573 times)

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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #405 on: December 09, 2005, 10:34:27 AM »
Yes, it is true that it is unlikely this happened, and you would know. I don't  think we have enough material to speculate, and we ought not to give credence to rumours. I don't believe it or anything unless there is evidence, and in this case, there isn't any, as you stated. And for being gay, well, I don't know either because he died really young, and it is not clear as it is with some other Grand Dukes, unless there is hard evidence, there isn't much we can say, and I did not start this question, had never heard of any marriages before, etc. He is a shadowy figure, and because of this, there is little to say about whether he was gay, married, or would have made a good Czar. It is interesting to speculate, about things, but as you stated if there is no firm grounds for speculation, we ought no to do it, at all.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #406 on: December 09, 2005, 01:25:34 PM »
I have discussed at length the gay rumors mentioned in "Tsar" with Peter Kurth. Turns out PK was told of the rumors by Edvard Radzinsky, no great fan of historical truth and accuracy. So, even the rumors it seems must be taken with more than a grain of salt.

I also consulted several medical experts and all agreed that GA's ability to sustain an adult sexual relationship would have been very limited.

I did this in preparing a chapter I've written for the upcoming "Grand Dukes" book - to be published by eurohistory.com.

Offline imperial angel

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #407 on: December 12, 2005, 10:51:42 AM »
Very interesting info about Grand Duke George. What we tend to loose sight of is that whatever his inclinations, his health was not of the best to do anything.I am glad that those rumours about his marriages were just rumours. It does not sound like him.

Offline doug__h

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #408 on: December 12, 2005, 05:04:18 PM »
As a relative newcomer to this site, I am astounded that whether someone is/was gay or not sets so many people off, some recoiling in horror hoping it can't be so, and others doing their best to dismiss the sources that suggest it might be possible.
Of course, I live in Canada where same sex couples can openly get married, so it's no big deal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by doug__h »

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #409 on: December 12, 2005, 06:51:49 PM »
Well, as someone who doesn't care pesonally, I agree.

However, as someone who also wants historical accuracy, I don't see something wrong with trying to prove whether they were rumors designed to harm someone (which is what would've been the result given the times) or whether they were actually true. There is genuine conflict over whether various people were gay or not and whether it was speculation based on the fact they were unmarried, fit the stereotype or had an especially nasty divorce--see GD Ernst of Hesse.
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #410 on: December 13, 2005, 09:54:08 AM »
I was refering to rumours of morgantic marriages to women of Grand Duke George, not men. I think we can never know if he was gay, bisexual, or straight, unless more research is done. His health was never very good, so if his inclinations were something, he might not even have acted on them.I think he is a shadowy figure, and we have little evidence of these things. That said, if anyone has evidence of anything, and are authoritative, let them tell me.
I am no researcher into the life of Grand Duke George, but I have read many books. It does not much matter if someone was anything if it didn't affect the fate of Russia or any other country. I have nothing against anybody of any persuasion.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #411 on: December 13, 2005, 03:43:18 PM »
There is no evidence of George having a sex life period. This in no way means that I have sought to dismiss rumors about his being gay or having a morganatic spouse. My research indicates that after a point, he would have had difficulty having a regular sexual relationship with anyone be they man, woman, or barnyard animal. That this could get twisted into my somehow not wanting him to be gay is beyond me. All I want is accuracy, not fantasy. There were always rumors about the grand dukes and sex, and many of these were untrue. I believe the rumors about GA being gay are untrue for a variety of reasons previously outlined.

Offline PrinceEddy1864

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #412 on: December 14, 2005, 04:36:35 PM »
Quote
There is no evidence of George having a sex life period. This in no way means that I have sought to dismiss rumors about his being gay or having a morganatic spouse. My research indicates that after a point, he would have had difficulty having a regular sexual relationship with anyone be they man, woman, or barnyard animal. That this could get twisted into my somehow not wanting him to be gay is beyond me. All I want is accuracy, not fantasy. There were always rumors about the grand dukes and sex, and many of these were untrue. I believe the rumors about GA being gay are untrue for a variety of reasons previously outlined.



interesting....

I know its not super important, but ill be honest I have thought about this in the past...

Lisa you say after a certain point Georgie's health would have made it impossible for him to carry on sexual relations of any kind and this seems completly acurate and understandable. But when was this point? I mean he was sickly all his life. I do feel that he must have had a sexual experience with someone at some point in his life. As I personally dont believe he ever married I wonder who this individual(s) could have been. I just find it hard to believe that he, well, never had sex.  

Sorry I think this has probably been discussed but I never joined in before this thread...i dont think  :D
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Offline Georgiy

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #413 on: December 14, 2005, 08:24:23 PM »
Why would it be so strange if he never did? I am not saying that everyone in those days was chaste until marriage - possibly far from it, however, there was far less societal obsession and pressure to be doing it left, right and centre than there is these days. Also apart from his health, what about his religious convictions? How important was his religion to GD George? This could also play a big role as to whether he was 'experienced' or not.

Offline Tania+

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #414 on: December 15, 2005, 11:00:51 AM »
Lol, chuckle, chuckle. As I read through this particular post I saw how many times 'sexual' was offered, but it was pointed out that this was not relevant, but the point was made for sure.

But I still go back to Georgiy's statement of Dec 14, and this makes more sense to me. Guess it only matters to what degree what one's need to really have answers to and go on from there...because in the end it really matters nought, as they are now deceased, and there are more important issues and subject matters to address.  ;)

Tatiana

Quote
I personally think it is VERY hard to believe. Perhaps that is just my opinion.

We know that Nicholas had pre-marital relations. Not to mention numerous other Grand Dukes and Princes. So I dont think George would have likely been any more against pre-marital sex/relationships than anyone else in his family seemed to be. I know of course that he and Nicholas were two different people etc. but they were still raised side by side.

I want to make it clear that I am not only thinking of him having sexual relations but of him having romantic relationships in general. These of course would likely have a sexual side to them but that would only be part of it. As I personally do not think he was homosexual, I see these relationships being with women.  

Also I dont see George's desire, if in fact he had any, to have relationships or sexual relations as having anything to do with societal norms/values. It is to me based in nature and more importanly human nature. I mean people are people.

i hope i worded this all correctly..i tried. hope it is not offensive either.  :)

TatianaA


Offline imperial angel

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #415 on: December 16, 2005, 09:53:56 AM »
Yes, this is really an unimportant subject as it is true that whatever Grand Duke George's inclinations were, then they never effected the fate of a country or anything else. And it is hard to know, we will never know, and it doesn't much matter if we do know. I don't want to be misinterpreted, but if we don't know anything, and the kind of research that could or coudn't prove anything isn't done, and/or it is something we could not do, then it is useless to speculate. I personally doubt he was anything other than streight, and he apparrently never made any rumoured morgantic marriages, and his health wasn't good so it limited what he could do. But this kind of topic is only important to him as an individual, and a member of the imperial family because he died so young, with the depths of his personality, and abilities mostly unrevealed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by romanov_fan »

Offline rjt

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #416 on: December 18, 2005, 03:19:28 PM »
Quote
Guess it only matters to what degree what one's need to really have answers to and go on from there...because in the end it really matters nought, as they are now deceased, and there are more important issues and subject matters to address.  ;)

Tatiana


If one takes this argument only in its entirety, then this board and the entire study of history is rendered pointless. [Because, as you say, they're all deceased and there exist matters of present importance to address (such as the "War on Terror" or what's for dinner).]

However, if one understands that various and sundry aspects of one's personality impact one's beliefs, decisions and actions, then one may begin to comprehend how the Grand Duke's sexuality (and whether or not he acted upon these urges) may have influenced his life. As example, imagine if no one ever discovered Konstantin Konstantinovich's diaries and never knew of his torturous struggle with his natural sexuality. To say that this never influenced his life would be incorrect. Therefore, in the pursuit of historical truth and context, one's sexuality is important, no matter if hetero, homo or bi.
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Offline imperial angel

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #417 on: December 19, 2005, 11:00:32 AM »
Speculating about someone's sexuality is important when dealing some people in history, and not important to others. I think dealing with some people it is very important, and dealing with others not very much at all. If it has an important impact in a country, or in culture, literature, art, entertainment, or some other place than their personal life, then it is relevant to speculate about the person involved's sexuality.If someone's personal life had a great impact on their work, be it literature, art or music, or whatnot, then it is important to speculate.
Otherwise, I think deciding if it has relevance to speculate on someone's sexuality to that person's life is a matter of individual opinion. If there is evidence one way or the other then it isn't even speculation to say anything.

Offline hikaru

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #418 on: January 12, 2006, 04:14:59 AM »
When I saw a statement that Nicholas was attacked in Japan because two Georgys - Georgy Alexandrovich and Georgy of Greece visited an all male brothels, made me sick and laugh.
If Mr. Curth really wrote it, it is very pitty.
Georgy went with Nicholas to a big voyage to the East as the junior marine officer of fregate "Pamyaty Azova".
As the junior marine officer he had to behave as marine officer but not as a tourist. He did  it perfectly.
But..... Poor Georgy never went to Japan, because
he had to leave the voyage at tne beginning of the January 1891 in Bombey (India) cause of tuberculosis attack. ( by the way,the reason was an Italian woman from who he returned to the fregate using a motor boat.  So he catched a cold which tranformed to a tuberculosis). It wasa real tragedy and  real end of life for him, for russian navy ( officers liked him a lot)
As for Nicholas  and Prince Georgy of Greece , they were full of life and they continued their voyage.
They entered to Japan on 15th April (old calendar) 1891.
Grand Duke Georgy Alexandrovitch was extremely
high estimated by  all naval officers. I am doubt if they would do it, if they know that he was a homosexual.
There is also a rumour that Georgy and Nicholas had a
quarrel cause of Kshessinskaya.

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Re: Grand Duke Georgiy Aleksandrovitch (1871-1899),discussion and pictures
« Reply #419 on: January 12, 2006, 07:20:05 AM »
It is always supposed that George Alexandrovich was a "shadowy" figure, but if one keeps researching, just about every book on the Romanovs, has some little tid bit about him.

In Little Mother of Russia by Coryne Hall (and I know this book is out of print and hard to find and expensive when it is found) he is mentioned quite often.

It would seem that Empress Marie did not even know ( or did not believe) he had tuberculosis as late as 1891 when he was sent on the Eastern cruise.

George A took part in a number of family trips and excursions.  After he returned home in 1891, he went with Dagmar to the south of France.

By 1894, he was living permanently in the Caucasis, but seems to have had "fun".    "Nicholas occasionally visited him and they went sleighing, played skittles and had some lively dinners.  Sometimes George was able to join his family in the Crimea, but most of the time he lived alone."

In May 1895, his health seemed to be improving and Dagmar went to the Caucasus to spend time with him and they "spent many happy days exploring the surrounding courtyside before she returned to Russia in time for the birth of Xenia's first child."

"When Nicholas became Emperor, George was proclaimed 'Grand Duke Tsarevitch' and Ataman of the Cossacks."  George was the nearest in age to Nicholas and the most intellegent."

"According to one source George was "married" to a woman whose name is unkown and whom he rejected in 1883.  A child is supposed to have been born from this union.  The same souce says that George then contracted a morganatic marriage in 1894 with a lady named Orkovska (or Orkanowska), who was born in 1873.  From this marriage he had two sons and a daughter, who were given the surname of Romanovsky. (This info is footnoted as "Information from Genealogica Gotha, p396. Provided and translated from Swedish by Ted Rosvall.)

 However unlikely this sounds, it would be nice to think that George had the consolation of some female company, if not a wife, in his lonely exile." (This is Ms Hall's comment.)

"In March 1896 Dagmar, Olga and Michael joined Georgie at La Turbie in the South of France."

In 1899, "Dagmar paid her usual visit to Georgie.  His health was deteriorating and he now spent part of most winters in Algiers.  The Grand Duke was studying the history of the Caucasus and had gathered an extensive library of books on the subject.  He was also Honorary Chairman of the Astronomical Society and paid for the construction of Russia's first high altitude observatory, which was bulit on his Abbas Touman estate and named after him.  He now found walking difficult because of his shortness of breath and, to Dagmar's dismay, had begun to ride out alone on a motor-cycle, although strictly forbidden to do so by the doctors."

"Two weeks later bad news arrived.  Georgie had been out alone on his motor-cycle and some hours later, when he failed to return, his worried staff sent out a search party.  By the time they found him it was too late.  A peasant woman had discovered him collapsed at the side of the road, blood oozing from his mouth as he struggled to breathe.  She supported him in her arms until he died.  He was just twenty-eight."

Disclaimer:  I tried to copy and type as accurately as possible the excepts from Ms. Hall's book.  Any mess ups are mine.

But IMHO, just like Alexis after him, George seems to have a "dare devil complex" and wanted as "normal" a life as he could have.

Like Prince John of England after him, he was separated from his family by his illness and even though Dagmar seems have been more attentive than Queen Mary was to PJ, it had to have been hard to be separated from everything that was going on around him.

Was his life important?  I think so.  Had he been able to stay closer to Nicholas, who knows what might have been different.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Alixz »