German occupation

[ChristineM]

No, it is not off topic.   Every single Nazi occupier had the choice and their commanding officers would have been rendered impotent had they refused to participate in the genocide.   Brainwashed these young men might have been, but, to hang residents of Pushkin from every available streetlamp does not sound to me as though they felt or were even aware of any sort of moral code.   

To extrapolate this notion of erecting memorials to the fallen irrespective of which side of the war they fought - I wonder how long it will take before it is suggested that  memorials should be erected to the murderers on that ghastly date - 9/11 or the equally ghastly date - though with fewer victims - of 7/7?

Time, to an extent, blunts the horror, but I feel we owe it to those who so needlessly and cruelly perished not - and to their loved ones - not to mark the existence of the perpetrators.   To do so is little short of collaboration... even capitulation.

tsaria

[dmitri]

amen

[Helen_Azar]

I think you guys are really getting carried away. No one is asking for a memorial to honor these people. These soldiers are not really in question here, that's not the point. The point is to let people know what happened there in that spot, as part of history of the park and the palace. I don't see anything wrong with that, and it has nothing to do with what these German soldiers participated in or not. I don't get why this concept is so hard to understand and why some of you keep insisting that we are asking for a memorial to honor them.    It seems like Arleen is the only one who understood what I am talking about...

[Robert_Hall]

I am with you, Helen. A simple marker denoting a war grave. [during.....German troops occupied the area and this is where they buried thier dead] It IS part of history and one cannot revision it.  I sort of wonder if there is even any record of who exactly is buried there? Germans were meticulous record keepers, so one might  there are.
 And Tsaria, you are not naive, how could you think than any German soldier could dis-obey? I am NOT justifying their actions, but if they had, they would  have met the same fate as their victims, would they not?

[Tania+]

The point IS when making any type of a historical statement, to make first and always a memorial to those whose lives were taken. It is a statement if you will of Perpetuation of Grief. Something as henious as what was imposed on citizens of Russia [and other global places] has every need to offer with what the Nazis forced on a free peoples. The emphasis on any sinage in this case IS to underline the crimes committed by the occupier. The site is to honor those who perished. Nothing needs to be stated by those who senselessly without consciencous wantonly mass murdered a country. Every site wherein these crimes were committed committed needs to be marked to show all peoples the exact places wherein these crimes were committed. We must neverr forget those innocent lives. This was a big deal back then Helen and continues to remain a BIG deal today ! Over 22 million lives were killed. The fact that the Nazi's were killed a few here or there is naught alongside the wanton acts that they committed. These soldiers remain in question during the war then and in what they participated in, as well as in today's world, the presence of them ever returning again is against every person who knows why Nazis should not continue to exist. The only sinage that should exist on any place where in a crime was committed is to state historically that the soldiers did not win and were defeated !

Tatiana+

[Helen_Azar]

I am with you, Helen. A simple marker denoting a war grave. [during.....German troops occupied the area and this is where they buried thier dead] It IS part of history and one cannot revision it. 

Exactly. This doesn't mean it honors anyone or doesn't honor anyone, it's not a matter of honoring, it's a matter of history, which is a whole different ball game. For example, at the History Museum of Tsarskoe Selo, they do have a couple of images of this, these pictures can be used to show what the place looked like during 1940's along with the sign (if you don't like the word "plaque") which tells the visitor historical background. This is what they do in museums and this is how generations learn about history. And the AP and the park surrounding it happens to be a museum. Memorials are an entirely separate issue.

[dmitri]

There are plenty of photos of the damage these vile war criminals carried out around Tsarskoe Selo, the other Tsarist Palaces, the peoples of the former Soviet Union and other peace loving people that invaded, plundered and murdered. The guides at Tsarskoe Selo and elsewhere tell you all about that. That is all that is needed. Only people with very little imagination or some sort of perverse interest in their crimes need any other reminders. Lest we forget. Let flowers grow and bloom where hate has previously flourished. Nothing else is needed.

[antti]

"....the former Soviet Union and other peace loving people....."
sorry  dmitri, but I´m in shock, Soviet Union ....peace loving?

[dmitri]

they were peace loving peoples .... remember the Germans attacked them and slaughtered millions and millions not to mention the huge destruction of the country ... we are talking here on the time of world war two ... not of the cold war and after

[Robert_Hall]

dmitri, what planet do you live on?  Stalin made a pact  with Hitler to chop up Poland.  I have often been called a "Commie fellow traveler" but even I can not  buy this "peace loving" bit. Communism  was a world movement, justifying violent action to achieve change. The German occupation of Russia, in my opinion was no worse than the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe.  Both were evil and both brought misery to millions. Nothing justifies either.

[antti]

perhaps a bit of the topic but I have never realised that when Soviet Union started boming for example cities of Finland in end on november in 1939 and started so called Winter War that it was "peace loving" act. Interesting view.

[dmitri]

I'm more than aware of the history of the pact. That is very well known. What is even more well known and far more horrific are the appalling atrocities carried out by the Nazi Germans in the former Soviet Union and elsewhere in Europe. They were much, much worse. As for comparing them to the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe that is plainly ridiculous and trying to divert the issue. The Soviets were harsh, but not total barbarians like the Nazi Germans. Let us not forget in world war two at least 20 million Soviets died alone. There were millions of others. Nowhere in Eastern Europe under Soviet occupation were people slaughtered so systematically and in such enormous numbers. The Nazi Germans murdered millions and millions and destroyed whole cities and palaces en masse. I wonder whether you have seen the photos of the destruction? Outside the Soviet Union, Warsaw was wiped off the map. Modern Warsaw is a total reconstruction. I suggest you take the time to read some of the history in depth. I recommend some very interesting books for you which might just show you how utterly disgusting the Nazi Germans were in the former Soviet Union and elsewhere. I wonder though whether you really want to know what happened. You seem to be more interested in running away from the issue.  Let's stick to what really happened, as others have pointed out on this thread.

I would suggest you read:  Pavlovsk: The Life of a Russian Palace by Suzanne Massie ... it gives a good account of the looting and destruction of Pavlovsk and elsewhere nearby and the enormous efforts made by the Soviets to try to restore the barbarian destruction of the area. Read about the females who risked their lives clearing mines from the parks.

Also most illuminating is : Sunlight at Midnight - St.Petersburg and the Rise of Modern Russia by W. Bruce Lincoln - the chapter entitled 'Nine Hundred Days' will give you a good understanding of what happened around Leningrad during the Nazi German occupation

To give a perspective of what Germans knew about Nazi Germany themselves : What We Knew: Terror Mass Murder and Everyday Life in Nazi Germany  by Eric Johnson and Karl-Heinz Reuband

To understand the Holocaust in Germany and the areas of Europe occuppied against their will (including large sections of the Soviet Union)  : The Holocaust Chronicle - Publications International Ltd, - I wonder whether you realise Soviet prisoners of war were gassed?

Further material on Nazi Germany and its horrors - National Socialist Germany - Chapter 11 of Cambridge Illustrated History of Germany

Hitler described the Soviets as ""sub-human Slavs" and was quite happy with any means to destroy them. This was the same man who wanted to wipe St.Petersburg/Leningrad off the map completely. It's very hard to imagine a greater lunatic given the extreme beauty and priceless treasures of St.Petersburg. Let's also take some time to remember the total destruction of Lidice and its people in the former Czechoslovakia. Stalin was a horror but should not be compared to Hitler. Look at him in isolation by all means but do not try and compare him. He is a different sort of monster and did not massacre millions and millions in Eastern Europe in the way Hitler did.  I could go on with much further information.

In parting what we see of the Catherine Palace today at Pushkin is largely a reconstruction as the original was mostly barbarically destoyed by the Nazi Germans, the same goes for Peterhof, Pavlovsk, Gatchina and elsewhere. We should all be grateful for the enormous rescue work carried out by the peoples of the former Soviet Union and Russia. They are the ones who should be remembered along with the millions and millions of their fellow citizens who did not live to have the opportunity to live in peace as we do. Lest we forget. Remember them. The television series 'World At War' also documents the Nazi German invasion of the Soviet Union extremely well if you want to see film, much of it shot by sadistic Germans actually delighting in the destruction which they carried out. The final episode 'Remember' is particularly enlightening.

[antti]

Dear Dmitri,

I think you forget that Stalin made a pact with Hitler which left the western Poland to Germany and Eastern Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland to Soviet Union. At the same time as Hitler was invading western Poland, Soviet Union was invading eastern Poland, Baltic States and Finland(with Finland "Great Soviet Union" did not managed that well).
In my point of view Soviet Union is as quilty as Germany of starting the war by making a pact of dividing the regions mentioned above.
It is well known that Soviet Union lost lots of lives during the war. But Soviet Union was doing exactly same as Germany was doing. And perhaps if Stalin would of care about his peolpe/soldiers at all,  much less would of loose their lives. For me the soviet regime was as evil as nazi regime perhaps even worse.

[dmitri]

That is not true.

[dmitri]

Nowhere in world war two did the Soviets behave in the same disgusting manner as the Nazi Germans. Of course they drove the Nazi Germans out of areas they invaded. That was to be expected. After all they were allies of the Americans, British and French. Without the Soviet deaths, the war would have dragged on for a far longer time. Finland is another matter entirely.