Author Topic: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?  (Read 108269 times)

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #270 on: August 10, 2008, 03:13:07 PM »
They were provoked and came to  protect the Russian population of that province, which wants to reunite with Russia. As I understand it, they are not planning on staying.  I thought it rich that Bush  complains about invasion of a sovereign nation.
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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #271 on: August 19, 2008, 09:04:47 AM »
They were provoked and came to  protect the Russian population of that province, which wants to reunite with Russia. As I understand it, they are not planning on staying.  I thought it rich that Bush  complains about invasion of a sovereign nation.

I tend to agree with Robert on this issue (advance apologies to Rich and others). While I don't normally sympathize with Russia these days, as I understand it, Georgia's recent actions against South Ossetia, which wants to rejoin with Russia, are what provoked Russian aggression in the first place. And according to my husband, it's very likely that Georgia only undertook such a drastic move because its government was so naive as to think that with Putin away at the Olympics in Beijing, the Russian government would never notice what was happening...

And Rich, BTW, Russia doesn't have a gigantic army. It has a very small and pathetic army made up largely of mercenaries and unwilling conscripts - most of whom are in Chechnia. Granted, Georgia is a much smaller country and has an even smaller and more pathetic army than Russia's, so there's no contest here as to who would ultimately prevail in this conflict, that is, without international pressure for a ceasefire. Still, in this instance at least, if not in many others, I am willing to give Russia the benefit of the doubt. Georgia is being portrayed as an innocent victim by Bush and McCain and the American media, but it is not so innocent, and moreover, its leader is a major blunderer, IMHO, who deserves a considerable amount of blame for how events have played out for his country in the last few weeks.
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Offline Phil_tomaselli

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #272 on: August 19, 2008, 02:54:30 PM »
The Georgian Government started this one and is now reaping the whirlwind.  But definite lines need to be drawn by both "sides" so that everyone knows where they are - the threats against Poland have been rather ominous, on the other hand NATO seems to quite happily assume it can just march up to Russia's border with impunity & subsume any of Russia's neighbours.  Time we all sat down and established our spheres of influence...................

Phil T

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #273 on: August 19, 2008, 11:42:52 PM »
After the Georgians attacked and invaded  S.O.
Honour all men.
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Fear God.
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1 Peter 2:17

Offline Terence

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #274 on: August 20, 2008, 12:26:14 AM »
The Georgian Government started this one and is now reaping the whirlwind.  But definite lines need to be drawn by both "sides" so that everyone knows where they are - the threats against Poland have been rather ominous, on the other hand NATO seems to quite happily assume it can just march up to Russia's border with impunity & subsume any of Russia's neighbours.  Time we all sat down and established our spheres of influence...................

Phil T

You seem to take a balanced view of the whole issue re: Georgia.  Would that those involved, w/ their egos could do the same.  Seems like very typical "statesmanship" and to a degree understandable.  It's just that the average folks that suffer in the end.

Everyone does need to know where they stand.  I don't see any former Soviet republics wanting to recreate the USSR.  The countries around Russia today are sovereign nations today, thankfully.  What they choose to do should not be dictated by Russia's desire to establish a "sphere of influence", as much as that can be understood.  Don't you think they've suffered enough oppression?  I understand western associations may be viewed as a threat by the Russians, but can't those countries finally choose their own course at this point in time?

T

Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #275 on: August 20, 2008, 06:20:51 AM »
They were provoked

They were provoked, but Georgia is a sovereign nation, it's not Chechnya.
As if waiting across the border for this day, they rushed to blast Georgia like
Chechnya because they have never accepted the passing of the Soviet Union.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 06:25:21 AM by StevenL »

Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #276 on: August 20, 2008, 06:23:12 AM »
After the Georgians attacked and invaded  S.O.


S.O. is internationally recognized as Georgian territory. Only big bully Russia disagrees.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #277 on: August 20, 2008, 06:31:41 AM »
After the Georgians attacked and invaded  S.O.


S.O. is internationally recognized as Georgian territory. Only big bully Russia disagrees.


And the people of S.O!!
Honour all men.
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Honour the king.
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Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #278 on: August 20, 2008, 06:35:16 AM »
I don't see any former Soviet republics wanting to recreate the USSR.  The countries around Russia today are sovereign nations today, thankfully.  What they choose to do should not be dictated by Russia's desire to establish a "sphere of influence", as much as that can be understood.  Don't you think they've suffered enough oppression?  I understand western associations may be viewed as a threat by the Russians, but can't those countries finally choose their own course at this point in time?

These are my sentiments about the newly free former Soviet republics as well. Furthermore, it is appalling to hear 21st century educated people advocating the establishing spheres of influence, as was applied against China and Iran. The only association between sovereign states in a more enlightened era must be completely voluntary. How pompous and chauvinistic to advocate that certain independent peoples be relegated to someone else's sphere of influence.

Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #279 on: August 20, 2008, 06:38:11 AM »
After the Georgians attacked and invaded  S.O.


S.O. is internationally recognized as Georgian territory. Only big bully Russia disagrees.


And the people of S.O!!


Yes, the ethnic Ossetians and Russia's resident lackeys. But not the ethnic Georgian residents, whose villages, homes and property are being obliterated by Russia's goons.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 06:42:16 AM by StevenL »

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #280 on: August 20, 2008, 07:00:10 AM »
What exactly is an ethnic Georgian resident?
And whose lackey's are they?
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
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1 Peter 2:17

Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #281 on: August 20, 2008, 07:17:35 AM »
What exactly is an ethnic Georgian resident?

If you don't know the answer to that, I cannot help you.

And whose lackey's are they?

Not lackeys at all. -- The ethnic Georgians resident in the region of S.O. are Georgian citizens living within the internationally recognized borders of Georgia.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 07:32:55 AM by StevenL »

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #282 on: August 20, 2008, 03:45:54 PM »
Steven, the vast majority of the citizens of South Ossetia want to rejoin with Russia.

We are once again reaping the whirlwind of Stalin's legacy. HE was the one who divided Ossetia into north and south, granting the former to the Russian republic of the Soviet Union, and the latter to the Georgian republic of same. It is a completely ARTIFICIAL boundary, with no meaning whatsoever except in the minds of Georgian nationalists and their dunderhead president, Saakashvili.

I am not exaggerating when I call Saakashvili a dunderhead, either. Even Georgian taxi drivers, according to an American grad student I know (who up until recently lived in that country, that is, up until war broke out, and even then, he didn't want to leave), characterize Saakashvili as uncommonly stupid. I agree. Because only a very stupid man would have deliberately challenged Russia in this way and at this time. Saakashvili was asking for trouble (although I don't think he was aware of that sad fact) and he got it.

I also believe it's time that the United States, the EU, and NATO especially backed off from expanding their respective spheres of influence in Eastern Europe and former Soviet republics. McCain keeps threatening to throw Russia out of the G8 if he becomes president - I honestly don't think this will happen, but the threat in and of itself is worrisome. We don't need to be alienating Russia at the moment. It's not in our best interests. Russia can go her own way, but it should never be said that the West provoked her to take drastic steps in her own "self-defense." IMHO an aggressive policy towards Russia is doomed to failure at the present time.

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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #283 on: August 20, 2008, 04:14:55 PM »
Saaskavilii "democratically elected ? Sure by 96%. Gee that  tops Marcos! Even the evil Mugabe tried to makes his look a bit fairer. Also   He overthrew the previous democraticaly elected president in a coup- the so-called "Rose Revolution".
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #284 on: August 20, 2008, 06:11:15 PM »
StephenL,
I won't bother with your Ethnic Georgian residents anymore,either you have an agenda or you refuse to accept reality,
Anyway to some interesting thoughts on the restoration of the Georgian Monarchy,,

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/gerald_warner/blog/2008/08/20/demoralised_georgia_may_renew_itself_by_restoring_its_monarchy


One point that I have to make, is that this family is Orthodox,have no agenda, and actually want to help their Georgian people, rather than the Ethnic Georgian Residents that solely want to suck the lifeblood out of Georgia and attack Mother Russia.
 ;)
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17