Author Topic: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?  (Read 108260 times)

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Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #285 on: August 20, 2008, 06:18:24 PM »
Steven, the vast majority of the citizens of South Ossetia want to rejoin with Russia.

No issue with that. Nevertheless, Georgia's present borders, as imperfect as they may be, are internationally recognized. Nothing justifies what Russia did. That's not the way to settle such disputes. Look at the damage to America's credibility for behaving similarly.

Saakashvili was asking for trouble (although I don't think he was aware of that sad fact) and he got it.

100% agree.

I also believe it's time that the United States, the EU, and NATO especially backed off from expanding their respective spheres of influence in Eastern Europe and former Soviet republics.

"Speres of influence" are historically something imposed on other countries by bigger countries.

Voluntary membership of a sovereign country in NATO, or any international organization, does not constitute a "sphere of influence."

Steven
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 06:37:34 PM by StevenL »

Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #286 on: August 20, 2008, 06:36:11 PM »
this family is Orthodox,have no agenda, and actually want to help their Georgian people

You post here on behalf of an entire family?

Suddenly I feel outnumbered...   : o )


Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #287 on: August 20, 2008, 09:31:29 PM »
No I don't, but its obvious they want to do more than chaps from Rhode Island.
 :-X
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Offline RichC

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #288 on: August 20, 2008, 11:00:13 PM »
I'm sorry to see some of the folks on this thread seem to be forgetting centuries of history here, in which Russia repeatedly walked all over her neighbors from Paris to the Pacific.  It seems that the folks on Russia's western frontier haven't forgotten.  As the NYT reported today, the American missile defense agreement signed with Poland on Wednesday is widely supported across Poland.  They don't seem to care about the details of who did what in Georgia.  They've dealt with Russia before, haven't they?  Vladimir Putin is referred to as "Adolf Putin".  And the Poles don't happen to see themselves as being within Russia's "sphere of influence" thank you very much...

BTW, Gorbachev weighed in today in the NYT with an Op-Ed piece about the Georgian war.  I think what he said is worth reading.

I agree that the Georgian president acted very foolishly in taunting the Russian Bear.  But please, who are we kidding here?  The Russian's would LOVE to move right back in and reclaim the territory they lost in the 1990's.  Russia is not going to change -- we see that now 18 years after the fall of communism.  It's going right back to being an autocratic regime just like it always was.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #289 on: August 20, 2008, 11:12:32 PM »
Obviously people are forgetting Napoleon, Hitler, Gustav III and others.
By the way, what has Gordon Brown had to say about this all?
Sarkozy has stuck his foot in it, Brown is being VEEEEEERY quiet.
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Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #290 on: August 21, 2008, 06:04:31 AM »
No I don't, but its obvious they want to do more than chaps from Rhode Island.

Not al all obvious, at least not by your sentiments above that seem to be very supportive of the recent action against Georgia
by its historic great bully to the north.
This particular chap from Rhode Island, on the other hand, is advocating for respect of internationally recognized borders
until the dispute can be properly resolved.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #291 on: August 21, 2008, 06:16:11 AM »
Resolved by whom and how?
Honour all men.
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Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #292 on: August 21, 2008, 07:20:24 AM »
Resolved by whom and how?

by whom: the people of Georgia, including the people of the secessionist regions
How: Peacefully, though discussions, compromises, treaties and/or some democratic process.

Models:
Czech Republic and Slovakia
Montenegro and Serbia
Belgium and the Netherlands
The Netherlands and Luxembourg
Quebec and Canada (if it had happened a while ago)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 07:22:28 AM by StevenL »

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #293 on: August 21, 2008, 09:03:43 AM »
I'm sorry to see some of the folks on this thread seem to be forgetting centuries of history here, in which Russia repeatedly walked all over her neighbors from Paris to the Pacific.  It seems that the folks on Russia's western frontier haven't forgotten.  As the NYT reported today, the American missile defense agreement signed with Poland on Wednesday is widely supported across Poland.  They don't seem to care about the details of who did what in Georgia.  They've dealt with Russia before, haven't they?  Vladimir Putin is referred to as "Adolf Putin".  And the Poles don't happen to see themselves as being within Russia's "sphere of influence" thank you very much...

BTW, Gorbachev weighed in today in the NYT with an Op-Ed piece about the Georgian war.  I think what he said is worth reading.

I agree that the Georgian president acted very foolishly in taunting the Russian Bear.  But please, who are we kidding here?  The Russian's would LOVE to move right back in and reclaim the territory they lost in the 1990's.  Russia is not going to change -- we see that now 18 years after the fall of communism.  It's going right back to being an autocratic regime just like it always was.

Rich, it's my belief that in this particular conflict Russia has actually behaved with an admirable degree of restraint. After all, the Georgians were the ones to provoke this war, and in doing so they wiped out an entire town in South Ossetia, killing hundreds of innocent civilians. The Russians could easily have responded in kind by carpet bombing Tbilisi. They should get some credit for the fact that they didn't.

I am sick and tired of hearing Georgia proclaimed the innocent victim of Russian aggression when quite clearly they have contributed greatly to this latest crisis. Face it, Russia is no longer the "evil empire." Granted, it is still a problem for its immediate neighbors and the West, but for crying out loud, Putin is not Hitler or Stalin by a long shot, heck, he's not even Peter or Catherine the Great.

And IMHO, South Ossetia does belong by all rights to Russia, since it was only given to Georgia by Stalin, and since the overwhelming majority of its citizens want to rejoin with Russia. Whatever happened to the right of individuals to determine their own destiny? And by the way, I bet that Stalin is laughing in hell over all the havoc his legacy continues to wreak a full 55 years after his death.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 09:16:08 AM by Elisabeth »
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Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #294 on: August 21, 2008, 06:27:16 PM »
Resolved by whom and how?

by whom: the people of Georgia, including the people of the secessionist regions
How: Peacefully, though discussions, compromises, treaties and/or some democratic process.

Models:
Czech Republic and Slovakia
Montenegro and Serbia
Belgium and the Netherlands
The Netherlands and Luxembourg
Quebec and Canada (if it had happened a while ago)

It appears to me that people in Georgia have decided that they wan't nothing to do with the current corrupt and imbecilic regime whose interestes and loyalties are more with the Americans than the Nation they represent.
It appears that discussion and compromise is not in their vocabulary, as seen by the invasion and attack on S.O.
It is also obvious, that that the overwhelming majority of Orthdox Georgians, identify more with Russia than with the current goverment,hence the accepting of Russian citizenship and passports offered by Putin.
Honour all men.
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Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #295 on: August 21, 2008, 06:42:02 PM »
Russians could easily have responded in kind by carpet bombing Tbilisi. They should get some credit for the fact that they didn't.

How absurd. Perhaps we should send them thank you notes with hearts and kisses for not using nuclear weapons and only cluster bombs.

I am sick and tired of hearing Georgia proclaimed the innocent victim of Russian aggression when quite clearly they have contributed greatly to this latest crisis.

Just because some of us are hard on Russia for its over-the-top aggression across internationally recognized borders does not mean we are proclaiming Georgia innocent. You are making the recent debate here more black and white than it is. Whatever Georgia's faults, it is Russia that has shown itself a continued threat to its many neighbors who also have Russian minorities within their borders. In one fell swoop, Russia has just committed serious aggression not only against Georgia, but has also sabotaged economically the other break-away former soviet neighbors in the Caucasus, revealing that Russia is still pining for the Soviet Union.


And IMHO, South Ossetia does belong by all rights to Russia, since it was only given to Georgia by Stalin, and since the overwhelming majority of its citizens want to rejoin with Russia.

Sovereign Georgia's current borders, imperfect as they may be, are internationally recognized. Does that not mean anything to you?

In a world as complex as this, countries, especially big powerful ones, cannot simply act based on what they think is theirs "by all rights."




Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #296 on: August 21, 2008, 06:49:56 PM »
It appears to me that people in Georgia have decided that they wan't nothing to do with the current corrupt and imbecilic regime whose interestes and loyalties are more with the Americans than the Nation they represent.
It appears that discussion and compromise is not in their vocabulary, as seen by the invasion and attack on S.O.
It is also obvious, that that the overwhelming majority of Orthdox Georgians, identify more with Russia than with the current goverment,hence the accepting of Russian citizenship and passports offered by Putin

You have now turned from discussion into blathering Russian state propaganda (with all its usual hyperbole) to which there is no intelligent response.
Enjoy the rant.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 06:53:36 PM by StevenL »

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #297 on: August 21, 2008, 07:00:43 PM »
Now you are getting personal sunshine, tell me, how much humanitarian assistance can a guided missile destroyer transport?

"Two U.S. Navy ships, including a guided missile destroyer USS McFaul, and a U.S. Coast Guard cutter are getting underway to transport humanitarian assistance supplies to Georgia, U.S. European Command (EUCOM) said on August 21.
It said USS McFaul (DDG 74) departed from Souda Bay, Crete, on Wednesday and the cutter Dallas (WHEC 716) will depart later this week.

McFaul and Dallas are scheduled to transit into the Black Sea and arrive in Georgia within a week, according to the U.S. European Command."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_McFaul

I have been on one of them, not very much!! This could get very messy/interesting if she ends up at the wrong spot at the right time.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 07:03:21 PM by Ilias_of_John »
Honour all men.
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Offline RichC

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #298 on: August 21, 2008, 07:03:36 PM »

Rich, it's my belief that in this particular conflict Russia has actually behaved with an admirable degree of restraint.

You mean, compared to what we are used to seeing.  Right?



Face it, Russia is no longer the "evil empire."


Elisabeth, what do you think the Chechens would say to that?

Offline StevenL

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Re: The Soviet Union: What Kind of Mistake Was It?
« Reply #299 on: August 22, 2008, 06:57:50 AM »
Face it, Russia is no longer the "evil empire."

Elisabeth, what do you think the Chechens would say to that?

It would not be just the Chechens. The continued sacking, destruction and non-withdrawal in Georgia proper continues long after the Georgian threat to S.O. has been very effectively and thoroughly eliminated.

No doubt several of the former Iron Curtain countries, as well as many former soviet republics with their significant Russian populations, are seeing the current events in Georgia as all too familiar of the bad old days of Soviet imperialism and oppression.