Author Topic: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...  (Read 17100 times)

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Offline Greenowl

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2009, 05:57:41 PM »
What lovely names!

My grandparents had boring names (or at least I think so): Agnes Clare and John Joseph // Marianna and Franz, although my mother had the slightly more exotic name of Philomena Frances and my father was called Carl (sometimes changed to Karel/Charles) Josef but known as "Charlie".
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 05:59:42 PM by Greenowl »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2010, 07:20:35 PM »
I think ranting against experimental names à la Moonshine Money is a rather short-sighted, from an onomastic point of view. If you look at the etymology of most names, most of them meant equally obvious and mundane things to the people who started to use them in their original language.

E.g. NAOTMAA:
Nicholas: People's Victory (Greek)
Alexandra: Men's Defender (Greek)
Olga: Sacred (Old Norse)
Tatiana: Unknown meaning, from a Roman surname.
Maria: Beloved, perhaps. (Semitic)
Anastasia: Resurrection (Greek)
Alexei: Help (Greek)

Would you have named your children Sacred, Resurrection and Help?
BTW I had never realized how pointed the meanings of the IF's individual names are, given their characteristics and fates. Perhaps nomen est omen after all?


Speaking of names, but of noble surnames:
Are there anybody else who thinks the mad Russian Civil War figure Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg showed good taste when he quite incorrectly adopted the form Baron Roman Ungern von Sternberg? Anybody else who thinks double-barrelled noble names sound too bourgeois, modern and too little feudal: E.g. that Count Danneskiold of Samsøe sounds better than Count Danneskiold-Samsøe?

And which country has the coolest noble names? Anyone who agrees that the:
- Spanish (e.g. de Villanova), German (e.g. von Neudorf) and French (e.g. de Neuville) ones are too boringly obvious, although the French ones do well in Anglo-Norman disguise (e.g. Neville)?
- That the British, Italian and Russian aristocracies had shockingly common and nondescript names in many instances, not at all distinguishable from commoners?
- That perhaps the best noble surnames are the ornamental surnames of the Scandinavian nobility derived from canting arms? E.g. Pistolkors of Romanov fame?


The name means "pistol cross" in Swedish.

Which came first, the name or the arms?
Probably at the same time - in 1645, when Queen Kristina of Sweden ennobled the Lieutenant Jöran Olufsson of the Karelian Cavalry. He, like so many Scandinavians ennobled by letters patent, obviously emulated the "armorially derived surname" of the ancient Scandinavian noble families like Vasa, Oxenstierna, Rosenkrantz, Gyldenstierna, Gyldenløve, Gedde, Banér, Bielke, Sparre, Stenbock, Natt och Dag, Leijonhuvud etc. But simultaneously he needed canting arms to derive that surname from!

In Scandinavia (particularly Norway and Denmark) where so many people have farm names as surname, territorial surnames (or titles) are not much used by the nobility, in stark contrast to both Britain, but especially France and Germany.  But unlike in Russia (and Britain), any surname can't be seen as noble, they are usually either foreign (mostly German, e.g. Wedell, Von Essen) or "ornamental surnames" derived or pseudo-derived from arms, like Pistolkors. Often with the connection to heraldry being explicitly mentioned, as in Danneskiold, Danish Shield, whose arms are a variation on the arms of Denmark.
Most non-Scandinavians would probably associate these types of surnames with Jewishness, e.g. Rothschild (Red Shield) and Goldenblatt (Golden Leaf).

Alixz

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2010, 10:30:32 AM »
I have thought about names of cities, not just children.  Corpus Christi in the state of Texas mean Body of Christ.  Can you imagine saying, I took  trip to Body of Christ last week?  And yet that is what we are actually saying.

Cabo San Lucas - End of Saint Luke

Sangre de Christo - Blood of Christ

But back to names, I have been researching my family's genealogy and I have found several unusual names.

My favorite is      Sit N Wait Lewis    (I don't know if the mom was talking to the child or her husband).

Of course being good Puritans we have our share of    Thankful and Silence and Patience and Prudence.  A couple of Jerusha's and one Salinda.

Constantinople

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2010, 11:27:02 AM »
My favourite is the Houston philanthropist and art collector Ima Hogg

Alixz

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2010, 02:47:03 PM »
My favourite is the Houston philanthropist and art collector Ima Hogg

How about that other well know Texan - Armand Hammer

Constantinople

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2010, 03:07:44 PM »
and then there was the well know rare book collector Paige Turner

and the wandering Grand Duke Ilbee Romanoff

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2010, 01:31:58 AM »
Did you notice that the man who shot the Amish children yesterday had redundant first names, Charles Carl? Who is so stupid not to known that this is the same name in different languages both originating from the ancient name Carolus?
The redundancy of names is interesting to me too.  I did notice the Charles Carl thing.  Also, giving two forms of the same name to two children in one family is very irritating, unless there are extenuating circumstances.  I know a family with brothers James and Jimmy, another with brothers Bobby and Robert, and yet another with sisters Patricia and Patsy.  I also know an unfortunate little girl whose name is actually Vicky Victoria.  It is listed on her birth certificate that way!  :-\

My favourite redundant (full) name is Amber Bernstein... :-)

Of course, with all our patronymic surnames, we also get to tackle that issue in Scandinavia: It's usually avoided, but a classmate of my brother was called Jens Jensen. And of course Thomas Mann immortalized a certain Hans Hansen in the ur-Schleswig-Holsteinian novel "Tonio Kröger".


Alixz

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2010, 09:54:07 AM »
I worked with a woman whose family tradition was to name the children a variation of the same name.  The woman I worked with was Lorette and her sister was Lorie.

Lorette named her son Christopher and her daughter Crystal.

She never told me why this was a tradition, but I always thought it must have been confusing at times.  Especially with the two girls.

Offline nena

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2010, 08:10:06 AM »
Perhaps nomen est omen after all?
Definitely. Every name has a meaning. It is not said for nothing. We can freely put the sign '=' between names and omens/meanings.
-Ars longa, vita brevis -
Mathematics, art and history in ♥

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2010, 04:38:42 AM »
No thoughts on this?
Are there anybody else who thinks the mad Russian Civil War figure Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg showed good æsthethic-onomastic taste when he quite incorrectly adopted the form Baron Roman Ungern von Sternberg?

Constantinople

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2010, 05:07:38 AM »
Does it justify thought?

Offline Grace

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2010, 05:56:21 AM »
You mean pondering this insoluble dilemma hasn't had you tossing and turning at night, Constantinople?

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2010, 07:47:31 AM »
I have to admit that I find it more interesting that this gentleman, whatever his name, had been thrown out of two military schools and two regiments by the age of 25!

Ann

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2010, 08:49:52 AM »
Yes, this evil chap could certainly do with a thread of his own.

Considering the number of threads devoted to the question of whether this or that RF has a surname or not, I think such a question as Von Ungern-Sternberg (a mere double territorial designation) vs. Ungern von Sternberg is not out of place.
Why did this brute want a proper surname?
Was he inspired by his fellow Baltic Germans, the Dukes of Courland, who despite being of very ancient nobility had the bourgeois-sounding surname Kettler. (Derived from their arms, which show a kettle hook. And Empress Anna Ivanovna can be said to have become Mrs. Kettler, when she married the Duke of Courland :-) Or lay the attraction for this self-proclaimed Dictator of Mongolia in the (erroneous) belief that "Ungern" indicated descent from Hungarians, at one time also an Eastern nomadic people? (Though most likely it's derived from a Baltic river.)

BTW a joke in Nazi Germany was that the anti-Semitic baron was ungern Sternberg, not willingly Sternberg (which was a typical Jewish name).
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 08:52:36 AM by Fyodor Petrovich »

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: What's in a name? That which we call a rose would smell as sweet...
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2010, 09:03:53 AM »
There are quite a lot of historical figures I would like to have met (Gustav Mannerheim for one), but the mad Baltic baron is definitely someone I would avoid!