Author Topic: The chairs in the murder room  (Read 19620 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline lexi4

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • don't take yourself too seriously
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2006, 07:37:58 PM »
Quote
Does anyone know if there was a list/inventory of items that were in the house prior and after the execution? It would be interesting to see such a list if it exists

Such a list does exist! I saw it at this very web site, actually. *goes to find it*

EDIT: Here you go.

Thank you clockworkgirl. :)
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline lexi4

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • don't take yourself too seriously
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2006, 07:47:05 PM »
Quote
Does anyone know if there was a list/inventory of items that were in the house prior and after the execution? It would be interesting to see such a list if it exists

Such a list does exist! I saw it at this very web site, actually. *goes to find it*

EDIT: Here you go.

Wow. That was all very interesting reading. None of the lists seem to mention the furniture that was in the house. But I am probably the only one who didn't know that.  :)
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6648
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2006, 02:14:45 AM »
The furniture did not really belong to the IF, so was not inventoried as part of their possessions. It belonged to the house/Ipatiev.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline AGRBear

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6611
  • The road to truth is the best one to travel.
    • View Profile
    • Romanov's  Russia
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2006, 10:07:32 AM »
Since the Impatiev House was rather new,  I would imagine the owner had a complete list of all the items in his home.

Wealthy people, like Impatiev, had someone in charge of all items which was often checked to make sure the servants didn't steal anything.  This includes everything from forks to pillow cases and of course all the furniture....

This list might well have been copied and presented to the local officials who readied the house for the IF.

AGRBear
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

Offline lori_c

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2006, 10:20:44 AM »
Here it is, James:

In answer to Bev's question about the disposition of the house, I am going to take information from King and Wilson's book TFOTR. I know  a good many posters on this forum shun this book, but I have no reason to doubt their information concerning the fate of the house itself.
When the Whites captured Ekaterinburg the house was immediately occupied, and the investigation began.
Part of the house was used as a residence for General Rudolf Gaida, the Czech Legion general. He slept in the corner bedroom that Nicholas, Alexandra and Alexis had slept in. The Whites made a very through search of the house during the winter of 1918 and summer of 1919. They were very through in making an inventory of the items in the house. Some fifty crates full of these items were packed and shipped east. Supposedly they were eventually turned over to GD Xenia A in England.
In 1920 the Bolsheviks created a Museum of the People's Vengence in the house. The musuem caretaker and his family lived in the house and 'he eats on the same wooden table as the Imperial Family once did."
The museum was on the upper floor, while the ground floor was occupied by the Sverdlovsk Boshevik Club.
The murder room was kept locked, and used to store file cabinets and such.
During World War II the house was a depository for Romanov treasures shipped from Leningrad to avoid German capture.
At the end of the war, the museum was dismantled. The house became the offices for the Ural State University. Since Sverdlovsk was off limits to foreign travelers without special permits, few outsiders visited the house. Those few who did and who requested it were often allowed to visit the house and the murder room. In a report in 1975 to the Politburo KGB chairman Adropov noted that the house ..."still stands in the center of the town. It now accomodates a study center of the Regional Central Adminstration...."
In 1977 the house was demolished over a period of three days. The carved chimney piece from the dining room wass salvaged, along with a few other relics. It is now in the local museum.
It seems that Nicholas Ipatiev and his wife immigrated with the White captured of the town and finally settled in Prague, Czechoslovakia, where he died in 1938. I don't know if he ever visited the house after the Bolsheviks had evacuated it in July, 1918.


Oops. I meant to post this on the post for The Chairs in the Murder Room. I don't know how to transfer it. Moderator, HELP!!!!!


I also found information in Greg King and Penny Wilson's Fate of The Romanov's that Sokolov's investigators found rubble in the middle of the floor of the family rooms and in the wood stoves where furniture and personal artifacts had been attemptedly burned.  This included furniture wood - could these have been from chairs.

Offline James1941

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2006, 12:06:06 PM »
Most interesting. That, indeed, might explain it.

Offline ChristineM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2882
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2006, 12:53:32 PM »
The sideboard from the dining room, as well as other items, were bought by Mstislav Rostropovich and his wife and are now in their palace/museum on the Neva embankment in St Petersburg.

In the film - 'Last Days of the Romanovs' by Gleb Panfilov, the murder scene was shot (pardon the pun) on film stages in Prague.   Panfilov insisted his designers adhere as closely as possible to the minutest, known, detail.   He, and his designers, accessed archive - both written and photograph - and built the scenes from this.   This is a Russian film, unfortunately not released in the West due to lack of funding for an English language dub.   I have it on VHS.   Unfortunately all three VHS machines are broken, but the answer to the question of the chairs may well lie in that scene.   Not having watched this film for a few years, I am trying hard to recall whether it was two or three chairs, but I am almost certain they were Thonet chairs.

tsaria

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2006, 02:07:07 PM »
In the film - 'Last Days of the Romanovs' by Gleb Panfilov

Tsaria,  any idea if it is still possible to buy a copy of this film somewhere?

Offline ChristineM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2882
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2006, 03:30:21 PM »
Helen - the actual title is:  ROMANOVI - Ventsenosnaya semya.   I'm sorry, I made a mistake with with the title.

I don't know how to access a copy.   Alexander Galibin, who played Nicholas II, is a dear friend of ours.   He is bound to be able to tell me if it is still possible to get a copy.   The film was released in 2000.   I was fortunate enough to be in Tsarskoe Selo when they were filming the sequences shot there.   To see Sasha arrive by car at the door of the Alexander Palace, almost convinced you it was Nicholas II himself.

It was the little details which I found illuminating.   For example, I was surprised to discover the camp beds the Imperial children used had cotton ticking sides (this you can see in photographs) - the true colours were a pale terracota and cream stripe - not what I would have expected.

The murder scene was filmed first.   As I wrote earlier, it was shot on a film stage in Prague.   I interviewed Lynda Bellingham, an English actress who played Alexandra.   She told me how they had tried to prepare mentally for this terrible day and that on the Sunday evening - the day before filming - she took her 'girls' out for supper.   She warned them, 'what we are going to do tomorrow is so awful, it will live with you for the rest of your lives'.   Being so much older she thought she should somehow try to prepare the younger actresses.    She recalled how, when filming began, no amount of rehearsals could really have prepared her for the horror of it all - and she knew she was acting, she knew what was going to happen and still she said it was the most horrific experience of her life.   What only lasted seconds, felt like hours.   Sasha, Lynda and the other actors involved in that scene are the only people who have ever come close to experiencing that last moments of Nicholas, Alexandra, their family and faithful servants.

tsaria

 

 

Offline dunya

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2007, 06:40:55 PM »
As I know it, they have been told that for security reason they have to leave - be transported. When Yukovsky led them downstairs they diddnt wanna go in the cellar, and he said they want a photo of you to as a proff thet you're alive. Yukovsky was a photographerso we understand how he came up with it. Correct me if Im wrong. If he was to tell them something else, do you think they would have entered the cellar that easily? I belive that even Nikolai didnt suspect of anything.

As for the chairs , they brought in 2 for tsar and tsarina, but Alexey sat in one as he being ill I recall. They did not want them to suspect anything thats why they brought in the chairs and wanted it to go smoothly I guess. Chairs must have been destroyed in the shootings. I dont think they kept them as souvenirs as theyre being wood and all, they must have taken something else instead.Dont you remember that photo, says I am standing on Tsar's grave, if they took such piture they must have taken souvenirs, theyre human after all and believing they're doing something sacred.

Offline etonexile

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1231
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2007, 07:10:06 PM »
Yes...I'd also love to see the "Romanovi" film...It sounds very moving just from the brief description...I've always wanted the BBC or such to do a 12 part mini-series on the IF,taking the the time to tell their story in detail.

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2007, 08:19:07 PM »
As I know it, they have been told that for security reason they have to leave - be transported. When Yukovsky led them downstairs they diddnt wanna go in the cellar, and he said they want a photo of you to as a proff thet you're alive. Yukovsky was a photographerso we understand how he came up with it. Correct me if Im wrong. If he was to tell them something else, do you think they would have entered the cellar that easily? I belive that even Nikolai didnt suspect of anything.

I don't believe there were *any* objections from the IF when they were asked to go into the cellar. A number of witnesses have written that the Romanovs didn't suspect a thing.

The notion that they were fooled into believing they were to be photographed is also a myth that seems to have originated with the author Edvard Radzinsky. Here's a little more info on the possible origin of that myth:

Beyond these issues, I'm not really willing to go. Speranski spends too much of his narrative spinning off on various philosophical and literary tangents. When he does occasionally get down to brass tacks, he all too frequently makes mistakes. The most obvious example: his account of the murder itself is so riddled with errors that one has to wonder where he was getting his information (I'm tempted to say: Ermakov!). He does recount Anastasia asking, once the family and servants had all lined up in the cellar room, if they were going to have their photograph taken? This might (or might not?) have been the original source of the story Radzinsky tells in his biography of Nicholas II, that throughout the early period of the Soviet regime, the Soviet secret police were taught to use this same technique - telling their victims that they needed to take a photograph of them - as a ruse for taking them by surprise and shooting them. But on the whole I think Speranski's description of the murders has to be discounted.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 08:26:45 PM by Sarushka »
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline lori_c

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2007, 08:50:42 AM »
I agree the first time i read about the photograph theory it was in Radzinsky's book.  But didn't he quote guards who witnessed the IF coming into the cellar, that the Empress asked "may we not sit?" and they commented to themselves and Yurovsky - they wish to die in a chair, let them.

I am open to any and all corrections on this.  :)

Thanks!

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2007, 02:43:45 PM »
I do recall reading that the empress asked for chairs. Sources seem to vary on whether 2 or 3 were brought.

I'm disinclined to believe Yurovsky made that statement about dying in chairs, but it's really just a gut reaction; I don't have any sources at hand to check. At any rate, I don't believe it's something he would have said in front of the IF -- plenty of sources do state that the family was completely unsuspecting until confronted with the firing squad itself.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline ChristineM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2882
    • View Profile
Re: The chairs in the murder room
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2007, 04:12:27 PM »
The 'photograph' was probably purely conjecture on the part of Radzinsky.   From the description of the positions taken up by the family and servants in the murder room, given by Yurovsky and Ermakov combined with Yurovsky having been a photographer, Radzinsky, the script writer, probably added these two facts together and came up with the 'group photograph' scenario.

tsaria