Author Topic: Identification,please  (Read 63373 times)

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Offline britt.25

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Identification,please
« on: October 17, 2006, 06:58:20 AM »
Dear members,


I have a question concerning the following picture: Can anybody identify it without any doubt?





On the page of the "Réunion des Musees nationaux" it is identified as:

Numéro d'oeuvre :
RMN71621
Cote cliché :
00-004708
N° d’inventaire :
MV6555
Fonds :
Peintures
Description :
Frédéric-Napoléon, prince Bacciochi (fils d'Elisa Bonaparte et de Félix Bacciochi) (1814-1833) - en habit de "prince français" en 1819
Auteur :
Krafft Barbara, née Steiner (1764-1825) peintre , femme, autrichienne
Crédit photographique :
(C) Photo RMN - ©Franck Raux
Date :
1819
Technique/Matière :
huile sur toile
Hauteur :
1.700 m.
Longueur :
1.050 m.
Localisation :
Versailles, châteaux de Versailles et de Trianon

But I have doubts that this pictures really shows Frédéric Bacciochi, because there are other sources, where it is said that it shows Franz of Reichstadt (Napoleon II), the son of Napoleon I and Marie Louise and not Frederic, the son of Elisa Bonaparte and Felix Bacciochi. So I am quite confused now and don´t know, what is true. Does anybody of you know this picture?
As the artist Barbara Krafft was an austrian Lady I think it is rather unlikely that this pictures really shows Frederic, because he lived somewhere else, after the fall of the Napoleonic Empire. Reichstadt did live at the Austrian court, so I think it is rather possible that Krafft painted Reichstadt and not his cousin Fréderic, who lived in Italy after his uncles fall, I think. From the looking it´s hard to say, it could be Reichstadt, but as children it is possible that cousins can be similar... :-\

Can any body help me? Does anybody of you know this picture? Why there are two completely different identifications?

I have been searching for a picture of Frédéric for quite a long time, so I think, it´s a pity that it might not be him.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 07:01:21 AM by britt.25 »
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline mardam

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2007, 03:20:46 PM »
According to the text in this postcard this is Napoleon II.

Offline britt.25

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2007, 07:45:56 AM »
I thought that before, a pity because I was looking for Frederic Bacciocchi, but thanks for your help. It´s really strange, because it is so often identified as Fréderic B. and not as Reichstadt, but I also hold the opinion it´s Reichstadt by the time :-\ Also because the artist is Austrian.
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline mardam

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2007, 12:14:10 PM »
I have the same problem with this picture. According to several websites this is Charles, count of Berry (1686-1714), but in the book about Louis XIV
by Nancy Mitford he is Louis le grand Dauphin (1661-1711), so the father of Charles. Can someone help??


Offline CountessKate

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2007, 01:08:22 PM »
It's extremely difficult to tell - they looked very alike.  This is pretty definitely Charles Duc de Berry, as it is one of a series of portraits with his brothers Louis Duc de Bourgogne and Philippe Duc d'Anjou:



The portrait Mardam is asking about seems to be of an older man, perhaps in his 40s, and as the Dauphin was 50 when he died and the Duc de Berry 28, I would go for the Dauphin.  The other thing which suggests the Dauphin to me is the artifact he is holding by his side - hunting horn, some sort of flask perhaps (I don't think it can be a helmet, it's too small) - has got the curved back of a dolphin, which forms part of the coat of arms of the dauphins of France.

Generally Nancy Mitford was pretty good about identifications in her books, though not infallible.

Offline britt.25

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2007, 02:30:17 PM »
Thank you for clarifying the problem with the Dauphin picture. I saw the two identified differently very often, I was not sure about that point as well...But the explanation seems somewhere logical. Even when there are pictures, where the dauphin looks a bit different, and more "Habsburg" like. I have read in a book that he came much more after his mother...was very blond "like an austrian archduke" and on some pics there is also the lip much to see!

To return to Fredéric again. I have now found another picture, which is likely to be very surely Fréderic Bacciocchi, son of Elisa Bonaparte and Felix B. And I don´t think it´s the same person like the boy the other picture. He is much more dark here and looks more "Italian" , not like the other boy. I also do believe that the Krafft picture is Reichstadt now, also because Krafft was definitely an austrian artist. Why should she paint the Bacciocchi family?

This artist painted different Bacciocchi portraits, also Fréderics sister Napoleone- Elisa:

Here the two siblings, Fréderic and Nap. Elisa to compare- much alike!






Thanks for your attention ;)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 02:33:30 PM by britt.25 »
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline polignac

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2007, 03:01:45 PM »
This is a beautiful portait of a lady by Vigée-Le Brun...Do anyone know who she was?Could she be Gabrielle de Polignac or is she too young? Thank you



« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 03:03:41 PM by polignac »

Offline gogm

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2007, 08:19:48 PM »
Have you checked batguano's site?

That's a real name and the site is at:
http://www.batguano.com/vigee.html

Offline Mari

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2007, 02:50:03 AM »
I have looked through that site and the painting is on page 114 but it is listed as A Lady and unidentified. However there are several unidentified.

Could this be the Countess De Provence, Louis XVI Brother's wife? Look on page 125 at a painting of her and note the sash and the eyebrows and the round face! Could this be an older, face turned forward ,painting of her? I realize that the Countess was considerably improved if this is she but so is the identified portrait of her!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 03:03:28 AM by Mari »

Offline britt.25

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2007, 03:19:50 AM »
The style, the big brown eyes, and the round face is very similar to the sister of Louis XVI, but I don't know for sure, if this is her....There are portraits of her, where she looks very similar to this here....
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2008, 10:24:35 PM »



Can someone please help me, All i know Amelie of Portugal is the lady on the fair right.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2008, 01:14:29 AM »
The photo is about 1885 year.

Sitting in front, from left to right: Countess Isabelle of Paris (1848-1919) with youngest son Ferdinand (1884-1924), her mother Duchess Luisa Fernanda of Montpensier (1832-98) with Princess Louise (1882-1955), youngest daughter of Countess Isabelle.

Second row, from left to right: in profile at the very left Jean Duke de Guise (1874-1940) (3d son of Duke of Chartre), then Louis Philippe Count of Paris (1838-93), his brother Duke Robert of Chartre (1840-1910), Duke of Montpensier (1827-97), Princess Marguerite of Orleans (1869-1940) (2nd daughter of Duke of Chartre), her mother Duchess Francoise de Chartre (1844-1925), Princess Isabelle of Orleans (1878-1961) (3d daughter of Count of Paris), Princess Helene of Orleans (1871-1951) (2nd daughter of Count of Paris), Princess Marie of Orleans (1865-1909)(eldest daughter of Duke of Chartre), Princess Amelie of Orleans (1865-1951) (eldest daughter of Count of Paris), Infant Antonio of Orleans (1866-1930) (youngest son of Duke of Montpensier), Prince Louis Philippe of Orleans (1869-1926)( future Count of Paris),and with crossed arms Prince Henry of Orleans (1867-1901) (2nd son of Duke of Chartre

Offline REMI

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2008, 07:08:04 AM »
I am afraid there are any mistakes in your replly. I don't think that the lady with a white hat is Isabelle d'Orléans (1878-1961), future countess of Paris because in 1885 when the picture was taken she was...7 years old! Who is she ? And who is the child in her arms?
In the other hand,the three boys on the right, are  according to me, Robert, elder son of Duke of Chartres, born in 1866, dead the same year 1885 ; his brother, Henri(1867-1901), famous explorer et their cousin, Philippe, future Duke of Orléans, not count of Paris(1869-1926).
This pictute was taken on Eu Castle' Terrace.
REMI

Offline REMI

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 07:12:10 AM »
I am sorry: Isabelle d'Orléans (1878-1961) married Duke of Guise (not count of Paris!!!)

REMI

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Identification,please
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2008, 10:47:53 AM »
I am afraid there are any mistakes in your replly. I don't think that the lady with a white hat is Isabelle d'Orléans (1878-1961),

At first I also thought there was THE LADY in a white hat. But if looking narrowly you can see that THE LADY is a little girl who is sitting on something, you can see her legs. :))
.
As for the three boys I must agree with you, I for some reason forgot about Prince Robert (1866-85).