Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 372762 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline dmitri

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2018
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #330 on: October 25, 2007, 09:21:57 AM »
I must admit I found it entirely curious that Xenia and her husband Alexander's children were not more senior in the succession. After all she was the eldest daughter of Alexander III and he was a Russian Grand Duke and they had so many sons and only one daughter. For the throne to go sideways after Nicholas, Alexis and Michael seemed completely absurd. Nicholas II of course was too weak to do anything basically therefore the completely archaic succession laws established by the Mother hating Paul I stayed in place. I wonder what Alexander III would have done if he had lived and known about Alexis and his incurable illness.   

Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #331 on: October 25, 2007, 03:35:25 PM »
I must admit I found it entirely curious that Xenia and her husband Alexander's children were not more senior in the succession. After all she was the eldest daughter of Alexander III and he was a Russian Grand Duke and they had so many sons and only one daughter. For the throne to go sideways after Nicholas, Alexis and Michael seemed completely absurd. Nicholas II of course was too weak to do anything basically therefore the completely archaic succession laws established by the Mother hating Paul I stayed in place. I wonder what Alexander III would have done if he had lived and known about Alexis and his incurable illness.   

I don't know that it is entirely fair to heap all of the blame about the succession on the shoulders of Nicholas II.

Nicholas I also had to deal with succession issues, and there was a modest little revolution then, the Decemberist Uprising, as a result. Once he had a family, there were more dynasts to help him in the business of running a large empire, lead by his heir, Alexander Nicholievich. Once  he succeeded his father, Alexander II had uncles and eventually his own sons to help him.

Alexander III had a multitude of family and the succession really did not seem to be an issue, but unlike Nicholas I, he did nothing to train his heir. By the time Nicholas II succeeded the throne, he had a tubercular brother and one too young to help him. He had a multitude of uncles who were often more trouble than they were worth. In short, there was little bench strength for much of his reign.

Add on top of that the dynasty's failure to marry off Michael A. at a suitable age and the next generation's failure to take their duties seriously, and you have succession issues of a great magnitude with a hemopheliac tsesarevich.

Nicholas II did consider alternatives to the Fundamental Law. However, the war and his inherent conservatism delayed effective action until it was too late for him.

Offline dmitri

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2018
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #332 on: October 27, 2007, 07:24:16 PM »
A touch rich to blame Alexander III for the multitude of bungles that Nicholas II caused by his sheer incompetence. Nicholas II was responsible not his father. The dead cannot be held accountable for the failings of the living.

Offline Robert_Hall

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 6648
  • a site.
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #333 on: October 27, 2007, 09:11:07 PM »
The succession law stood, Nicholas did not change it. Kyril was the legitmate heir, so be it.  For Xenia to succeed, every legitimate male heir would have to have died! GD  GD Alexander was a bit further up the legitimate succession line, being a male, but still way behind others.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Ilias_of_John

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #334 on: October 28, 2007, 05:46:20 AM »
Better to be a King maker rather than a King?
What does Putin think of all this?
Any inside gossip?
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline dmitri

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2018
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #335 on: October 29, 2007, 07:11:59 AM »
Not much I would think.

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #336 on: October 29, 2007, 08:01:29 AM »
What does Putin think of all this?
Any inside gossip?

Think of what exactly?


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline Ilias_of_John

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #337 on: October 29, 2007, 05:31:49 PM »
The Tsarist restoration issue. He seems to be very keen on restoring the Glory of Russia, will he restore the Monarchy?, has he contemplated it?
With 80 percent approval in the Russian polls, he could do just  about anything!!!
ie, Restore a constituitional Monarchy, and become Prime Minister
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline Belochka

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4447
  • City of Peter stand in all your splendor - Pushkin
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #338 on: October 29, 2007, 05:41:02 PM »
I would doubt that he would entertain the idea during his present term of office.

Margarita


Faces of Russia is now on Facebook!


http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/

Offline lexi4

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
  • don't take yourself too seriously
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #339 on: November 30, 2007, 02:28:48 PM »
The Tsarist restoration issue. He seems to be very keen on restoring the Glory of Russia, will he restore the Monarchy?, has he contemplated it?
With 80 percent approval in the Russian polls, he could do just  about anything!!!
ie, Restore a constituitional Monarchy, and become Prime Minister

I doubt that he has given restoring the monarchy a sustained thought.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely, in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow ---- What a ride!!!"

Offline miller99

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Head of House of Holstein-Gottorp
« Reply #340 on: March 16, 2008, 07:50:26 AM »
Of course Dmitri Pavlovich ( born 1954) is a Head of House of Holstein-Gottorp.

Look:

Sovereign families
What follows is a summary of the provisions regarding equal marriages among the 35 dynasties of the German Confederation.  Note that the phrase "equality required" means that legitimate birth from an equal marriage was a necessary condition to be able to succeed to the throne (Successionsfähigkeit).  For the complete texts, see my page on German succession laws...
 Holstein  :
State Constitution -  No
House law  - No


Holstein.
Christian Adolf von Holstein-Sonderburg was obliged to cede his territory of Sonderburg to the king of Denmark to pay off his debts and settled in Franzhagen, in Lauenburg.  His son Ludwig Carl zu Holstein-Franzhagen (1684-1708) married on 20 Dec 1705 Anna [alias Barbara] Dorothea von Winterfeld (1670-1739); they had two children who died both in infancy. [Pütter 229]

Friderich zu Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg (1652-92) married in 1692 Anna Christina Bereuter, daughter of a barber of Kiel; he died the same year at the battle of Enghien (3 Aug 1692) without issue. [Pütter 159-60.]

Ernst August zu Augustenburg (1660-1731) married in 1695 Marie Therese (Freyin according to some) von Velbrück, daughter of the Master of the Horse of the Elector Palatine; they had no issue.  He converted to Catholicism and obtained a position as canon in Cologne, but later returned to Protestantism. {Pütter 170]

Ernst Casimir zu Beck (1668-95) married in 1693 Maria Christina, daughter of Wolfgang Ehrenreich Graf von Prösing; she died in March 1696 without issue. [Pütter 177]



Look:
Holstein.
Case Holstein-Plön/Eichelberg (1702).

This case arose in a branch of the Oldenburg family, more precisely among the descendants of Johann (d. 1622), 4th son of king Christian III of Denmark (d. 1559). This line of Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön (see a genealogical table here) split at the next generation into the lines of Sonderburg (itself further splitting into many lines of Franzhagen, Beck, Augustenburg, Wiesenburg), Norburg, Glücksburg, and Plön. The line of Plön itself split at the next generation between Johann-Adolf of Holstein-Plön, August of Holstein-Norburg (or Nordborg), and Joachim Ernst of Holstein-Rethwisch.
August of Holstein-Norburg died in 1699 leaving two sons, Joachim Friedrich (1668-1722) and Christian Carl (1674-1706).  On Feb. 20, 1702 the younger brother Christian Carl married Dorothea Christine von Eichelberg(alias Aichelburg).  Her father Johann Franz had served as captain in an Austrian cavalry regiment, and later as Hofmeister at the court fof Plön.  Later that year, a contract (24 Nov 1702) was concluded between Christian Carl and his elder brother Joachim Friedrich.  The text explained Christian Carl's intention to conserve the house of Norburg and avoid the division of its estates among many children.  It stipulated a 40,000 Thaler lump-sum payment to Christian Carl's widow and suspension of the rights of the issue of that marriage to any of the family fiefs until extinction of the (male) line of Joachim Friedrich.  The king of Denmark approved the contract on 5 Dec 1702 and granted to the issue of that marriage the name of von Carlstein and a specific coat of arms.


Christian Carl died on 23 May 1706 leaving a son (Friedrich Carl von Carlstein, b. posthumously on 4 Aug 1706) and a daughter.  Later the same year, on 4 Nov, the Holstein-Plön line died out and Joachim Friedrich inherited the imperial fief of Plön.  The tutors of young Carlstein, appointed by the king of Denmark, made claims but were rebuffed in 1710 and 1714 in imperial courts.

On 25 Jan 1722 Friedrich Joachim died, leaving only daughters and a pregnant wife who gave birth to a daughter.  The next male-line heir, after Carlstein, was Johann Ernst Ferdinand duke of Holstein-Rethwisch, whose father had entered Spanish service and converted to Catholicism; he immediately claimed the Norburg-Plön succession in Imperial and Danish courts.  But, on Dec. 12, 1722, in exchange for a significant share of the disputed estates, the king of Denmark, Frederik IV (4th cousin of the brothers) declared Carlstein his kinsman and a duke of Holstein, and militarily took possession of Plön on his behalf.  The duke of Holstein-Rethwisch sued, Carlstein counter-sued, and the matter dragged on for years (in part because imperial courts refused to countenance young Carlstein's self-style as "duke of Holstein") until past the death without male heirs of the duke of Holstein-Rethwisch in 1729, whereupon Carlstein inherited Rethwisch as well.  In July 1730, he married Christine Ermegaard Reventlow, niece of Frederik IV's 3d and morganatic wife Anna Sophie Reventlow (they left no male issue).

Finally, On Sep. 11, 1731 the German emperor decided that the marriage should be considered as "ein ordentliches und Fürstliches rechtmäßges Matrimonium," that the son born of that marriage was entitled to the name, rank, and dignity of a duke of Holstein, and to inherit all rights and prerogatives of the Holsteins as princes of the Empire, and in particular in the imperial lands of the Holstein-Plön succession, and to be considered a full agnate of the house of Holstein.


Offline LisaDavidson

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #341 on: March 16, 2008, 09:35:50 PM »
While Dmitri Ilyinsky is without doubt Furst of the Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp line, he is nonetheless dynastically ineligible to be part of the Imperial House of Romanov. His grandfather's morganatic marriage created this situation, although his own marriage is also morganatic. I would like to point out that Tim Ilyinsky is to my knowledge not interested in being Tsar of Russia, and Russia is not interested in having the monarchy restored.

Offline DanlScott

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #342 on: April 18, 2008, 08:55:40 PM »
Forgive me for wading in so late - I just recently joined the forum.  But, I've been a Romanovphile since '83, and I've read through some of these posts over the years (but admit I haven't read them all - this thread is soooo long!).  Forgive me if I'm reiterating what others' have said.

I keep reading references to the Fundamental Laws, and arguments that they do not allow the Russian throne to remain vacant; the minute one one tsar dies or steps down, the next in line immediately takes his place (that seemed to be Kyrril's argument).  The Fundamental Laws proscribe who is a member of the imperial family, and their place in the succession.  And I've read the argument that the Laws themselves contain a law stating they couldn't be changed.  But this argument is false, and negatees all other arguments along these lines.  The tsars were autocrats, and even after 1905 Nicholas II was characterized as (and thought of himself as such) an autocrat.  They themselves, if they had the backbone, made the law and could change the law.  Just by virtue of being autocrat.  Did not Paul I change the laws to introduce primogeniture?  Grand Duke Constantine Paulovitch passed up the throne in favor of his younger brother Nicholas I.  There is anecdotal evidence that Alexander II was considering making his children from his second wife (a non-royal) members of the imperial family.  Alexander III changed the laws to determine who was a Grand Duke, and who was a mere prince.  I've even read that the Fundamental Laws did not give the tsar the right to deprive the next in line the right to succession, yet Nicholas II ignored this when he bypassed his son in favor of his brother Michael (who was married to a commoner!).  According to the laws, Michael was then the autocrat.  In 1613 the Muscovites gave the throne to Michael I; three hundred years later, as the new autocrat, his namesake had the right to give it back.  Thus ending the Romanov occupation of said throne.  Even if one argues that the constituent assembly never met and voted on a form of government as Michael expressly wished, the Russian people today have (somewhat) free elections; by largely ignoring the monarchist parties that have sprung up, they have in fact voted on what they want.  The Fundamental Laws no longer exist.

But ultimately, all this is academic.  It's fun to argue, but it is not real.  There was a revolution!  Russia ceased to be a monarchy, there is no dynasty - only a family nameed Romanov.  No more fundamental laws.  No "rightful" heirs.  And no one can decide who is a member and who isn't based on a a so-called un-even match (even the current reigning families don't subscribe to that anymore!).

Offline imperialruss

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
    • Russian Imperial Union Order
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #343 on: April 19, 2008, 04:56:50 AM »
Greetings,

l reply to this Anglo Saxon/ Celt view f things Russian, l enclose a  pdf file of a full report of the recent tour of HIH GD Maria of Russia, please note the title refered to HIH in letters and on the memorial stone, l dont think the Russian Community wastes money on putting inncorrect names on expensive things. The Governments of Russia came by intially from a war insurrection not by voting, the interim Govrnment was not voted out as you know.

Have a good look at what is in this file has in its conent and see if  a lot of Russian think its all gone, your out of step with a lot of us actually, l feel sorry for millions of Russian whom perished in Gulags under Stalin really called Cobar , what about the men pushed to the front with out even a weapon in their hand by political commissars to straight death, this includes my relatives, its easy to say things on a forum , its a lot harder in real life.

http://russianwelfare.org.au/pdf/imperial.pdf,     in this pdf file you see the Russian Ambassador and first Secretary accepting the Order of St Anna 2nd and third class respectively, what do you say about that, also another Order of the Grand Duchess is accepted in the Military as well in Russia.

http://www.riuo.org/SUCCESSION_ENGLISH.pdf


www.russianimperial.com.au

www.imperialhouse.ru

   www.riuo.org
   
   http://private.peterlink.ru/asorokin

   www.russianball.com.au
www.nobility.ru



Offline imperialruss

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
    • Russian Imperial Union Order
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #344 on: April 19, 2008, 07:25:28 AM »
http://www.monarhist.ru/club.htm


here is a whole lot of news all at once