Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 390193 times)

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Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #555 on: May 14, 2010, 09:01:05 PM »
I hope things change, seriously!  I guess if the whole world is bombarded constantly with the above references Maria and her family refer to themselves by sooner or later everyone, sadly, believes them. Where is the honesty, integrity and sovereign right for her and her family to not only claim but now own the throne of the Russian Monarchy by simply putting a crown on her own head by her own hand. I cannot believe the Church or anyone could fall for this. Is this the will of the people? JonC.

The Russian Church both Abroad and in Russia, recognises her as the Heir.
She has dined with Presidents and Prime Ministers(Medvedev and Putin.)
She has attended many family events, like Crown Prince Frederik's wedding to the then Mary Donaldson.
I dont really think anyone is falling for it or not.




You are certainly far reaching!! If the Orthodox Church did recognize her then why are there so many objections to her actually assuming the Throne? No-one, whether in Government or within the Church, when it is all said and done, will actually choose her because of the baggage her family brings. JonC.

She might not assume the throne, if there ever is one again, but perhaps George might, or one of his decendants.
Honour all men.
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Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline richard_1990

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #556 on: May 15, 2010, 05:20:25 AM »
Quote
You are certainly far reaching!! If the Orthodox Church did recognize her then why are there so many objections to her actually assuming the Throne? No-one, whether in Government or within the Church, when it is all said and done, will actually choose her because of the baggage her family brings. JonC.
The Orthodox does appear to support her, but this means nothing - the Orthodox church doesn't have the power to elevate her to the throne. That's a political process.

Offline Student of History

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #557 on: May 17, 2010, 07:59:58 AM »
I am sure I have seen a whole thread or two dedicated to the reasons why/ why not the Vladimirovitchi claim of succession is flawed. That is through no fault of Maria nor George's as far as I am aware. However, it is the combined fault of certain European royal houses being inarticulate about the facts.

There is only one pure line of decent that remains from the original Romanov family. Senior family members, across the globe - particularly those with high public profiles are aware of them and have been for a very long time.  Unfortunately, as sometimes happens in families - and royal houses are sadly no different - hostilities over money and who can get what', and 'who has what' within the wider branches of the family remains.

Accordingly, for the moment at least, the real Romanov heir will continue to be debated ad nauseum...

Offline richard_1990

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #558 on: May 17, 2010, 08:06:41 AM »
Quote
There is only one pure line of decent that remains from the original Romanov family. Senior family members, across the globe - particularly those with high public profiles are aware of them and have been for a very long time.  Unfortunately, as sometimes happens in families - and royal houses are sadly no different - hostilities over money and who can get what', and 'who has what' within the wider branches of the family remains.
"pure" line of descent? descent from what? The male Romanov line died out with Peter II in 1730. I'd be interested in knowing what this "pure line" of descent is, and who possesses it.

Offline Student of History

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #559 on: May 17, 2010, 08:15:32 AM »
Hello Richard ;)

Pure line refers to the offspring of two equal royal /high noble partners (according to the lLs).
As I've mentioned previously in this forum, Queen Marguerite summed it up best in an interview with the BBC when asked about Romanov heirs she commented, 'It is a family matter'.

History is created by those who write it... a little like the history of Australia, originally black has been filtered 'white' until recently.

All the best,
SOH


Offline richard_1990

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #560 on: May 17, 2010, 08:56:00 AM »
What? If you're of the opinion that GD Maria is the product of an unequal marriage then you must conclude that there is no legitimate heir, at least by the Pauline Law, so as to leave the dynasty itself defunct. Unless you're the reincarnation of Tsarevich Alexei?

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #561 on: May 17, 2010, 09:07:10 AM »
To be technical, the discussion is moot.  The instant that Michael refused to accept Sovereign power, "unless the people wished it", that Sovereign power ceased to exist. Nobody could "claim" it, and frankly the governmental institutions which "could" have recognized any such inheritance of "Sovereign power" also ceased to exist. The "dynasty" is indeed defunct. People who's gg grandparents USED to have titles and positions now squabbling over the "right" to claim a title that means nothing whatsoever.

The discussion of "who is the rightful heir" is a pedantic exercise in fiction. There is nothing to inherit.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 09:11:34 AM by Forum Admin »

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #562 on: May 17, 2010, 05:59:21 PM »
Well said Admin.
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline Student of History

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #563 on: May 17, 2010, 06:24:11 PM »

Konstantinoupoli, athelfe,
And you know I mean that!

There is no need for you to send her a note, she already knows your thoughts.

Also, you calling her Mrs. is inappropriate, as she is divorced.

Now,my turn...

I have always believed that GD'S Xenia's descendants were the rightful heirs, by blood, of the Imperial throne.
There is a young lady in Athens somewhere, called Xenia (from memory).
Anyway,
I was a friend of the late Lieutenant Commander Michael Romanov, R.N.
grandson of  H.I.H Grand Duchess Xenia.
( i hate typing, all this upper and lower case drives me insane)
:)
Prince Michael Andreevich asked but one thing prior to his death,
and that was, to help unite the family and to right past wrongs.
I am not an ecclesiastic, nor an academic, nor a historian,
but ,

when the Vice President of the Romanov Family Association tells me, just 2 days before his death, that after this generation is gone, it will all be left to Georgyi, what in heavens name do you want me to think or do?
The Church, the State, and most parts of the R.F.A now aknoweledge that Maria and her son George are the closest to the throne.
It might not hapen, but he is closest to the bullseye.

Ilias.
And I too have Romanov friends (living)

Ilias, your hostility surprises me given your commitment to the family.

Offline Ilias_of_John

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #564 on: May 17, 2010, 06:49:21 PM »
Such is life!
Honour all men.
Love the brotherhood.
Fear God.
Honour the king.
1 Peter 2:17

Offline Michael HR

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #565 on: May 18, 2010, 06:18:55 AM »
Many would say that the wishes of GD Michael still prevail and it is a matter for the Russian people to decide. This was the last act of Imperial law and IMHO still stands today, not matter what Maria might wish.

But the argument will go on for ever, sadly. I do wish George would state his views on the subject, perhaps he is waiting until his Mother passes away?
Remembering the Imperial Corps Des Pages - The Spirit of Imperial Russia


Offline richard_1990

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #566 on: May 18, 2010, 09:42:24 AM »
That's an interesting point Ilias_of_John. I always forget Grand Duchess Xenia and her descendants. Considering that GD Maria's claim rests on the the basis that there are no male dynasts and therefore it goes to the female line, wouldn't it be the most senior female line? Which would undeniably be one of Nicholas II's sisters.

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #567 on: May 18, 2010, 10:07:49 AM »
Let us also not forget the fact that Imperial Law demanded that all male dynasts be born to a Pravaslavnya mother. Maria Pavlovna Senior was NOT Russian Orthodox when her sons were born. She did not convert to Orthodoxy until 1905.  There is strong evidence that the minister of Justice for Nicholas II wrote a legal opinion confirming that her sons were excluded from inheritance for this reason and that a much later conversion to Orthodoxy could not be "retroactive" for the requirement that the sons be born to a woman who was at that time Russian Orthodox. Thus all the Vladimirovichi line is excluded anyway. including Maria and George....

Interesting....Still, a moot point tho.

Offline mcdnab

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #568 on: May 18, 2010, 10:55:22 AM »
Actually moot point or not - it seems that the Orthodox mother issue is highly debatable - Grand Duke Vladimir's children Kyril, Andrei and Boris were undoubtedly treated as dynasts irrespective of their mother's religious affiliations as were the Constantinovichi children.

If a minister did write a legal opinion on it for Nicholas II I would be interested in the date given that after Kyril's marriage Nicholas deseperately wanted to exclude him but most legal opinion said he couldn't do that a contrary view from an ambitious minister might have been most welcome whether accurate or not.

Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #569 on: May 18, 2010, 12:35:45 PM »
According to Spiridovitch, the report was requested by Nicholas II soon after her conversion. Tchetcheglovitov, the Minister of Justice, sent the report to Nicholas II as well as Maria Pavlovna.  There may well be a copy tucked away in GARF somewhere. It was clear according to him that the law required dynasts to be born to an Orthodox mother. As Maria Pavlovna was NOT Orthodox, her children could not inherit the throne.  Further, when Alexander II gave permission for Vladimir to marry a non Orthodox, his ukaze very interestingly said only that Vladimir did not lose his succession right, but there was no mention of his children's rights. Don't confuse the rights and privileges that came with being the grandsons of an Emperor with being able to succeed to the Throne.  According to Spiridovitch, Nicholas II himself was convinced that Vladimir's sons could not succeed to the Throne.