Author Topic: Who is the rightful heir?  (Read 298308 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

aleksandr pavlovich

  • Guest
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #615 on: October 23, 2010, 07:11:00 PM »
Re Reply # 614:   Greetings! I thank you very much indeed for your kind note of assistance in properly correcting the names that you mentioned. I will definitely append your information to the existing documentation that I have.  As to the vendor source, I will get that to you right away in a personal e-mail. Best wishes to you and yours for the up-coming Holidays!  Best regards,  Aleksandr Pavlovich.

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1792
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #616 on: October 23, 2010, 07:57:30 PM »
I can't help but smile when I read about all these people bickering over which of them is the rightful heir.  Until Russia becomes a monarchy again, it really doesn't matter who wins this fight.

Hail (fill in the name), Emperor of nothing!
Days Of OTMA's Lives is on hiatus until further notice.

Offline Превед

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 936
  • Мой Великий Север
    • View Profile
    • Type Russian Without a Keyboard
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #617 on: November 11, 2013, 08:38:13 PM »
My acquaintance gathered at least two of the "Hymn" booklets and proceeded to politely and ethically move among the more prominent guests with highly pertitent Russian historical connections in this situation.  He asked if they would autograph, (as a momento of the occasion) a couple of copies each on the inside title page?  And WHAT an assemblage of names did he gather! Somewhat later he put up for sale ONE copy of the Hymn and one copy of the luncheon memu (unsigned).  Learning of his willingness to sell one copy of each, I immediately entered into a contest with several others desirious of such an historical assemblage of names.  My top competitor turned out to be a "Texas University of Russian History professor," but I was able to become the purchaser of BOTH the items.  I have absolutely NO DOUBT that these are authentic signed-on the-spot by the people so named.  The signatories on the inside front right page are as follows: ""Prince Nicholas Romanoff (simply signed "Nicholas"; Prince Dimitri Romanoff, (signed "Dimitri Romanoff"; "Princess Olga Romanova"( signed "Olga Romanova"); "George Yurievsky" (great-grandson of the Emperor Alexander II); "Princess Angelica Ilyinsky;" "Dimitri R. Ilyinsky;" and " Anna Ilyinsky;" ( daughter-in-law and grandchildren of the Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovich); and Princess Xenia Yusupova Sifiri ( daughter of Prince Felix Yusupov and the Grand Duchess Irina Alexandrovna).  This was an unrepeated chance for me to have all these interrelated and intertwined representatives of this era assembled on one page and I happily paid the price!  The question arises:  Where was the Grand Duchess Maria V. ?  I understand that she left early, thus no representative signature of herself.

I can understand her if she left early! This sounds tacky: Asking for autographs on a hymn booklet at a memorial ceremony and then proceeding to sell it!
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Vecchiolarry

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 760
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #618 on: November 11, 2013, 10:59:46 PM »
Hi,

Indeed - crass and tacky - and quite without class...
Even the lowliest plebian in Rome wouldn't behave so vulgarly!!!!!!!

Larry

Offline Ajimmo

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #619 on: November 11, 2013, 11:21:50 PM »
I am curious as to who is Anna Ilyinsky?  The named Angelica is (now) the widow of Pr Paul Ilyinksy, who was a US Marine, the Mayor of Palm Beach Florida USA and a very handsome man as well as the son of the Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovitch.  . 

Offline Превед

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 936
  • Мой Великий Север
    • View Profile
    • Type Russian Without a Keyboard
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #620 on: November 12, 2013, 09:44:27 AM »
I am curious as to who is Anna Ilyinsky?

Paul Ilyinskiy's youngest daughter. See here.
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Romanov_Fan19

  • Graf
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #621 on: November 13, 2014, 01:46:22 PM »

Offline Michael HR

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
  • Imperial Corps Des Pages
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #622 on: November 17, 2014, 10:51:04 AM »
Hi all,

Until Russia decides on this question it is mute.

For myself I have always followed the manifesto of GD Michael Alexandrovich when he handed imperial power to the Duma for the people to decide in free elections, and the Duma to ratify,  who and in what status should take the throne. This was the last act of the dynasty and is effectively still in effect. The Pauline laws do not matter it will be a decision for the country to make should they wish.

Michael
Remembering the Imperial Corps Des Pages - The Spirit of Imperial Russia


Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1792
    • View Profile
    • Rex and Hannah Chronicles Wikia
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #623 on: November 17, 2014, 06:17:02 PM »
Looks to me that Putin setting himself up for the job.   He acts like an autocrat, he's in tight with the ROC, he's building himself a fancy palace on the Black Sea.

All Hail His Imperial Highness:  Tsar Vladimir I
Days Of OTMA's Lives is on hiatus until further notice.

Offline Превед

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 936
  • Мой Великий Север
    • View Profile
    • Type Russian Without a Keyboard
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #624 on: November 18, 2014, 03:18:46 PM »
All Hail His Imperial Highness:  Tsar Vladimir I


As Imperial Majesty Vladimir Vladimirovich would be Vladimir IV. (V, if you count the Romanov pretender Vladimir Cyrillovich-:)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 03:22:28 PM by Превед »
Березы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и березы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline NickNicholsonNYC

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #625 on: December 17, 2014, 01:39:11 PM »
The problem with George may be the fact that his line is excluded entirely because Maria Pavlovna was not orthodox at the time her sons were born. Alexander II gave Vladimir succession rights for marrying outside of Orthodoxy, but said nothing about any children he produced. See my comment in the Kyrill thread:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1076312290;start=15#15

If this report is true, then this entire line has no "legal" claim to succession. Many people belive this to be correct.

This is a fiction.  Regarding HIH Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich and his succession rights and the succession rights of his children. You state (as have many western scholars) that Kirill Vladimirovich had no right of succession to the Russian throne because of the Lutheran faith of his mother at the time of his birth.  This is, in fact, a widely repeated fallacy -- it was among the many pieces of émigré disinformation which was spread in the west after 1918 by supporters of Nikolai Nikolaevich aimed at people who were unfamiliar with private arrangements within the Imperial Family, as well as the specific nature of the succession laws.

There was a "Familial Decree" at the time of the marriage of Grand Duke Vladimir to his wife Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna concerning this exact matter.  Because of Maria Pavlovna's reticence regarding conversion, the following document was drawn up, signed, countersigned, and announced in the Russian Imperial Senate (full citation follows the quote for the original Russian Source material):

“Having allowed my son, Grand Duke Wladimir Alexandrovich, to enter into marriage with Her Grand Ducal Highness Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin; and indicating our agreement that Her Highness Duchess Marie, in accordance with her special familial circumstances, is not required before her betrothal and marriage to convert to the Orthodox faith, I deem it right to establish in this present Familial Decree the following unalterable rules with respect to this marriage: (1) If, by God’s inscrutable will, the succession to the Throne should fall to my son, Grand Duke Wladimir Alexandrovich, and his spouse should remain in the Lutheran faith, then my son, Grand Duke Wladimir Alexandrovich, in accordance with Article 142 of the Fundamental Laws, may not take up the right of succession other than after the conversion of his spouse to the Orthodox faith; (2) If the spouse of Grand Duke Wladimir Alexandrovich should not convert to the Orthodox Faith at the time of the passing of the Succession to him, then he should be regarded as having of his own free will renounced his said rights, in full accordance with the contents of Articles 15 and 16 of the Fundamental Laws; (3) If, by God’s inscrutable will, the spouse of Grand Duke Wladimir Alexandrovich, having not converted to the Orthodox faith, should die before the passing to him of the right of succession, then, his marriage to a person of another faith having ended, he will preserve his right of succession to the Throne;  (4) In the event indicated above in section 2 concerning the renunciation of Grand Duke Wladimir Alexandrovich, and in the same manner if, by God’s inscrutable will, Grand Duke Wladimir Alexandrovich should die before his spouse should convert to the Orthodox faith, the children born of this marriage retain full rights to the succession and are Members of the Imperial House in the order of succession set by the Fundamental Laws.” 

This ukaz' was signed by Emperor Aleksandr II, by the Tsesarevich Aleksandr, and by the bridegroom, Grand Duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich.  Dr. Stanislaw V. Dumin found this memorandum in the Russian State Historical Archive (GARF) in Moscow.  I am grateful to Brien Horan for having brought it to my attention and to Professor Russell Martin for his English translation.  The original is at GARF, Fond 468, subsection 46, number 63.  CF Dr. Dumin’s analysis of this document is in the Chronicle of the Historical and Genealogical Society, issue 14/15 (58/59), Moscow, 2009.  (The numbering of the Fundamental Laws was different in 1874 than in 1917, when the monarchy fell.)  It was first published in english by Brien Horan in his article "The Russian Succession in 2013" published in the Royal Russia Annual Vol. No. 3, 2013.

You can see from this Ukaz' that even if Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna had NOT converted to Orthodoxy, there was no question that her son, Kirill Vladimirovich, and all subsequent issue were in line for the throne with full dynastic rights.  The conversion of the Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna may be regarded charitably to have been a purely religious act of conscience on the death of her husband, or uncharitably as a political move to remove the last publicly perceived though legally irrelevant obstacle to her son's inheritance of the throne.

Offline Royal Bloodline Descent

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the rightful heir?
« Reply #626 on: May 15, 2016, 02:05:10 PM »
Is the rightful heir really Grand Duke George? I highly doubt his claim but he seems to be the only Romanov interested in the throne. Is there any other claimants? Even though the chances of the monarchy being restored are slim, I would still like to know who the real heir is.


Interesting discussion old or new the question is relevant today as it was before.   Royal Bloodline Descent on facebook  has posted on their site facts of Czar Nicholas 11 his rare bloodline markers that were passed on to Alexis and Anastasia.  So the question may be. does the present pretender and his mother the Grand Duchess have any claim to the present defunct throne of the Czar or might is be a present day Romanov whose bloodline may be the same a s Nicholas 11 and two of his children.

So the question may be who shares the royal bloodline of the last Czar of Russia or is it a mother or son that appears not to know anything of the royal bloodline of Nicholas 11 that is still been inherited even today.

Royal Bloodline Descent     on facebook