Author Topic: Yorkist Princesses  (Read 37025 times)

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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2007, 02:55:38 AM »
All the sources I have seen seem to suggest that she was devoted to the nunnery at a very early age by her mother. Seems a bit cruel doesn't it?
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Offline jehan

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2007, 07:58:37 PM »
All the sources I have seen seem to suggest that she was devoted to the nunnery at a very early age by her mother. Seems a bit cruel doesn't it?

Well yes, but remember that very few people back then had much choice as to  career or marriage, especially royals.  She could just as easily been promised into an unhappy marriage at a young age.  Life as a nun was not that much more uncomfortable than any other, and often they lived quite well. At a time when marriage (not always a happy one- and you were stuck with it!) meant almost constant childbearing and childbearing often meant  early death, a comfortable life in a convent (and royals would have gone into the "posher" ones) was not a bad life for a woman at that time.  The gap between the quality of the lives of those in a religious life and those in the secular world was not as wide as it is nowadays.

Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. 
(leonard Cohen)

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2007, 02:03:10 AM »
Absolutely agree Jehan but from what I understand, Bridget entered the nunnery as a VERY young child. What age could that be..3 years old, 5 years old? Hopefully she was "allowed out" to be with her family for high days and holidays.
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Offline Mari

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2007, 05:55:24 AM »
Any images of Bridget or Anne?  I wonder how strong the Woodville influence carried in appearance? :-X

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2007, 04:15:06 PM »
Mari, there is the stunning "Royal Window" at Canterbury Cathedral. Edward and his family are pictured at prayer, males to the left, females to the right. Here is Cecily;
http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1220_gothic/from_regions.php?cat=cat38
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Offline bell_the_cat

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2007, 05:53:49 PM »
I was on the bus again today, and was wondering if Elizabeth put her toddler daughter into a convent as a way of getting the church on her side. It was also a guarantee that nothing untoward would happen to the other girls.....
I'm thinking of the 1483-5 period. ???
Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline Mari

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2007, 02:06:23 AM »
That is a beautiful depiction in the Cathedral Window. She looks like her Mother to me.

 I have not come across anything yet in the primary materials that tells me how devout Elizabeth Woodville was in her religion. But I know devout Catholics of the WWII and Korean generationl liked to see one of their children become a Priest or Nun.  Not so much these days but they don't have huge families and they don't have to provide dowries.   :D

Offline FaithWhiteRose

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2007, 04:49:43 PM »
I was on the bus again today, and was wondering if Elizabeth put her toddler daughter into a convent as a way of getting the church on her side

Elizabeth might have done that so they wouldn't have to negotiate a marriage for her or anything. just to, you know, sort of get rid of her.

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2007, 02:02:27 AM »
The fate of Cecily of York and her descendants has long fascinated. According to what I have read, she was first married to a certain Ralph or Richard Scrope, then to John, Viscount Welles  -  by whom she had two daughters, but no grand-children. Her third marriage was to Thomas Kyme or Keymes. Almost nothing is known of him. It is assumed that the Royal Family disapproved of this marriage which may, or may not, have been a love match. To my mind, however, there is no difference between Cecily's marriage to Kyme and that of Katherine of Valois with Owen Tudor after the death of Henry V.

Cecily of York had two children by Kyme: a son Richard and a daughter Margaret. Richard Kyme married and had children. If he had grandchildren I have so far found no trace of them. Margaret Keyme was named as a legatee (and cousin) in the Will of Lady Katherine Gordon, the wife of Perkin Warbeck. Margaret Kyme is known to have married a man called John Wetherby. If she had descendants, I have as yet no idea.

All known descendants of the Plantagenets were listed in an exhaustive series of volumes in, I think, the 19th C. by the Marquis de Ruvigny. This work is still available  -  but is extemely expensive.

Princess Cecily ( or the Lady Cecily, as she was more usually known in Tudor times) was apparently buried at Quarr Abbey on the Isle of Wight.

Offline Mari

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2007, 06:30:29 AM »
The death of Edward the Fourth, and the deposition of his son, changed the fortunes of his daughters. Instead of becoming Queen of Scotland, Cecily Plantagenet married John Viscount Welles, an especial favorite and uncle of the half-blood of Henry the Seventh (31), through whose influence he obtained her hand. It has not been discovered when their marriage took place, but it must have been before December, 1487, as at the festival of Christmas in that year, when the Heralds "cried" the guests into court, they addressed her in these words, "Largesse, de noble Preincesse la sur de le Reyne notre soveraigne dame, et Comtesse de Wellys," and Lord Welles is stated to have given "for him and my lady wife" twenty shillings (32). In the 7th Henry VII., 1491-2, an act of parliament was passed which recited that the Viscount promised on marrying Lady Cecily to settle certain lands on her and the heirs of their bodies, out of the estates to which he was restored in the 1st Henry VII.; but as he was then about to accompany the King in his voyage royal, it was enacted, to avoid expense, that they should hold the lands in question to them and the heirs of his body (33). In the 19th Henry VII., 1502, after the viscount's decease, another settlement was made securing those lands to her for life (34). At the christening of her nephew Prince Arthur, at Winchester, on the 24th of September, 1486, Lady Welles carried him to the font, he being wrapped in a mantle of crimson cloth of gold, furred with ermine, with a train, which was borne by the Marchioness of Dorset (35). When her sister was crowned, she was in immediate attendance on her person, and supported her train during the whole ceremony (36).
would still lik
Viscount Welles died on the 9th February, 1498-9, and had issue two daughters, Elizabeth and Anne, who both died young, and their mother married to her second husband, a gentleman of the name of Kyme, of Lincolnshire. At the marriage of Katherine of Aragon to Arthur, Prince of Wales, Lady Welles bore the princess' train (37).

It is not a little remarkable that the precise date of the birth, of the marraige, of the baptismal name of the second husband, and even of the death of Princess Cecily, the sister-in-law of one King and aunt of another, should never have been ascertained. An entry on the 13th May, 1502, of her having lent her sister the Queen 4l. 13s. 4d. on some occasion, is the only notice which is to be found of her in the Privy Purse Expenses of that year. In those of Henry the Seventh, from 1492 to 1505, her name does not occur; and this account of her, imperfect as it is, must be closed with the remark, that she is said to have died at Quarera, in the Isle of Wight (38).  from the Richard III site

And then I found this: Cecily married THOMAS OF ISLE OF WIGHT KYME, Bef. January 1503/04 and that would be the reason She was buried at this Abbey on the Isle of Wight.

Are there any sources that indicate this was a love match?

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Offline Mari

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2007, 05:19:51 AM »
Let me put this another way.  I would like to read any good historical material or primary source material that indicate that the last Marriage of Cecily of York was a love match. I also would like to read any recommended Material about Elizabeth Woodville's personality....I have found comments on her Beauty and even Edward IV's great passion for her when he met her...and of course there are garment records etc. on the Richard III site but nothing to describe her actual personality. I know that She is off topic  but the same People that are interested in the Daughter will be interested in the Mother. :)

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2007, 05:41:13 AM »
Mari, I honestly don't think that you will find any primary source material that would indicate a love match. This sort of thing wasn't "of interest" in those times.Females were relatively unimportant chattels that belonged to their parents and then belonged to their husbands. So unimportant that quite often, even dates of birth were not reported (Anne Boleyn is a good example here).
A good bio of Elizabeth Woodville is ;
Elizabeth Woodville, Mother of the Princes in the Tower. by David Baldwin. The appendices (?spelling) are of particular interest
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elizabeth-Woodville-David-Baldwin/dp/0750927747/ref=sr_1_2/026-7364500-0215629?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190198238&sr=1-2

There is also a bio on Anne Neville by Michael Hicks which, although IMHO is badly written and terribly biased (he constantly refers to Richard III as a serial incestor), has some excellent information on the treatment of women, the concepts of marriage, religious attitudes etc.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 05:48:56 AM by Kimberly »
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Offline Mikestone

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2008, 02:13:55 AM »
Prince Christopher.

From what I can gather, the (marital) problem for Edward IV's daughters was their penny-pinching father, and his reluctance to provide them with decent dowries. Iirc, Charles Ross comments at on point that Edward's highest ambition in life seemed to be to get important European princes to take his daughters with no dowries.

It is curious that Henry VII has such a reputation for parsimony. From what I can see, Edward IV was much worse in that respect.

Offline Mari

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2008, 07:18:31 AM »
Why do you think so specifically? Would love to know what you read and where... :)

Offline matt99

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Re: Yorkist Princesses
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2008, 06:47:06 AM »
I have read, in the Lives of the Queens of England by Agnes Strickland, that Mary (1467-82) daughter of Edward IV died young & was buried in St George's Chapel, Windsor. Strickland go's on to say that in the a few hundred years her tomb was opened and she was so well preserved that as soon as the air hit her eye balls they turned to dust. I will have to go the Library & check for the full story. It is in the Elizabeth Woodville Section of the book from what I can remember.

Anyone else heard or read of this?