Author Topic: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur  (Read 66983 times)

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Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2006, 12:52:15 AM »
In the letter the future French king Louis XVIII asked the first consul " to return Napoleon France its lawful king and promised Napoleon, that descendants will glorify and thank it. Still also the future Louis XVIII promised to give Napoleon the Corsican kingdom. In the answer Napoleon only has burst out laughing and has told, that will operate France independently.
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2006, 02:29:41 AM »
As I said, one can like or dislike him, but all that upcoming black or white thinking is not fitting to this topic in my view. This person was much more complex, how it might seem on the first look. Surely he was autoric person and made mistakes, I never said something different, but his reigh had also positive aspects. It´s not Ok only to day: "He was a devil and that´s all."
But even if the bourbon heir, you mentioned, had reigned I am not convinced that the french people would have been satisfied with this. I had surely made the similar mistakes as his brother Ludwig, but surely this is not to prove. It´s not to forget the french system was not stabile at all after the fall of Napoleon, when another Bourbon king reigned. What was the result? Napoleon III!
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Offline Yseult

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2006, 07:49:39 AM »
In the letter the future French king Louis XVIII asked the first consul " to return Napoleon France its lawful king and promised Napoleon, that descendants will glorify and thank it. Still also the future Louis XVIII promised to give Napoleon the Corsican kingdom. In the answer Napoleon only has burst out laughing and has told, that will operate France independently.

To be honest, Dmitry, the Bourbon´s kings deserved the lost of their great reign of France. I don´t mean poor gentle Louis XVI deserved his cruel execution, neither Marie Antoinette deserved her tragical end, but...they ruined absolutely the prestige of the dinasty. Remember the struggle for power between Marie de Medici, widow of Henry IV, and her own son, Louis XIII. Remember Anne of Austria running away with her children Louis XIV and Philippe during the Fronda, when princes of blood where involved in the revolts. Remember Louis XIV with his large number of mistresses...Louise de La Vallière, Athenaïs de Montespan with the affair of the Poisons, Madame de Maintenon. Remember Louis XV with his more large number of mistresses, including three sisters and two low ranked woman. Remember the brothers of Louis XVI ruinning the reputation of the austrian queen.

Napoleon had a chance because all the mistakes of the Bourbon´s family. And I don´t know why he might have returned the crown to Louis XVIII...

Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2006, 04:55:43 PM »
Napoleon should return a crown to the French kings because they were Capetiens both lawful anointed sovereigns and kings. Their right was Divine.
It is absolutely wrong, that Napoleon spoke the wife: " To return to it a crown, then to be driven in? "
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2006, 02:17:16 AM »
The divine right is something , which cannot excuse all the mistakes that the regime of the Bourbons did. A long time the divine right existed and seemed to justified everything, but in the time of the illumination the people developed more and more doubts about this view concerning a reign and the attitutes in Europa changed, the divine order became more and more replaced by  rationality and intellect: It was not enough anymore to be a monarch because of the divine order, but one had to demonstrate one´s abilities and to justify oneself and show the reasons, why one was ruling. What sense has a regime, when it is not really carried by the will of the people?
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Offline Yseult

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2006, 05:04:25 AM »
Napoleon should return a crown to the French kings because they were Capetiens both lawful anointed sovereigns and kings. Their right was Divine.
It is absolutely wrong, that Napoleon spoke the wife: " To return to it a crown, then to be driven in? "

Well, I don´t believe in the Divine right of the kings. And I suppose that the collapse of the "Ancien Regime" means that only a few still believed in the Divine right of the kings.

Offline britt.25

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2006, 10:07:51 AM »
Yes, I think so as well. In the 19 th century the Divine Right seemed to be out- dated and the civil era began: And I think Napoleons regime was at the beginning the will of the people, even when he went too far later on.
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2006, 05:58:53 AM »
Well! I would like to receive answers to these questions.
1) when Napoleon was born on the Corsican island, unless it was not the citizen of the French king?
2) unless the French king has not recognized many Corsican families as noblemen?
3) unless Bonapartes have not been recognized by the French royal government as nobiliary family?
4) unless Napoleon has not acquired the right to study in military school due to the French exchequer?
5) when Napoleon began to serve in the French royal army, unless it did not swear on fidelity to the French king?
6) when revolution has occured in 1789, unless Napoleon has not been obliged to protect the French king and to suppress revolts?
7) when Napoleon was a sign with the brother of revolutionary Maximilian Robespierre, unless it has not betraid king and did not become the revolutionary and the supporter of revolution?
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Offline umigon

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2006, 06:29:44 AM »


This is puerile... Napoleon died 285 years ago so, come on, move over! What's wrong with this discussion, it's supposed to be fun and interesting, not a discussion talking about Napoleon being the devil's son or the Bourbon's "Divine" Rights to the French Crown... I thought we were in the 21st century...
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2006, 04:52:35 AM »
Can anybody else answer Dmitrys questions this time >:(
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

palatine

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2006, 09:28:39 PM »
Well! I would like to receive answers to these questions.
1) when Napoleon was born on the Corsican island, unless it was not the citizen of the French king?
2) unless the French king has not recognized many Corsican families as noblemen?
3) unless Bonapartes have not been recognized by the French royal government as nobiliary family?
4) unless Napoleon has not acquired the right to study in military school due to the French exchequer?
5) when Napoleon began to serve in the French royal army, unless it did not swear on fidelity to the French king?
6) when revolution has occured in 1789, unless Napoleon has not been obliged to protect the French king and to suppress revolts?
7) when Napoleon was a sign with the brother of revolutionary Maximilian Robespierre, unless it has not betraid king and did not become the revolutionary and the supporter of revolution?

It’s been a good long while since I’ve read about “the great Napoleon”, whom Queen Victoria, the Defender of the Faith, admired so much that she knelt in prayer at his tomb, but I’ll try to answer your questions.

1.  As I recall, Corsica was taken over by France when Napoleon was very young.   

2.  The French governor of Corsica befriended Napoleon’s parents and helped them get their noble status recognized in France.  The Bonapartes were probably naturalized at that time.  I don’t know if the noble status of “many” other Corsican families was recognized or not; it's my understanding that it wasn't an easy process.  In later years, rumors spread that the governor had taken Napoleon’s mother as a mistress and that he was Napoleon’s real father, and that this was why they'd been granted noble status in France.  These rumors were utterly untrue, but, unfortunately, that didn’t keep them from spreading.  Many were eager to blacken Napoleon’s name, and that of his family, in any way that they could, a deplorable tradition that continues, to some degree, to this day.   

3.  See answer to # 2.

4.  Napoleon and his siblings Elise and Joseph attended school in France.  Louis XVI paid for Napoleon and Elise’s tuition (and possibly Joseph’s), and for that of other impoverished members of the nobility.   

5.  I have no idea if French officers and troops were required to swear loyalty oaths in those days. 

6.  At the time of the French Revolution, Napoleon was a nobody.  As I noted in an earlier post in another thread, to lead a successful counterrevolution, a person would have needed clout, cunning, connections, a ruthless streak, and the ability to act as a free agent.  Napoleon had cunning and could be ruthless, but he didn’t have connections, clout, or the ability to act as a free agent and thus make deals on the royal family’s behalf.  Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were long dead by the time he started to become influential.

7.  Napoleon made friends with Maximilien Robespierre’s younger brother Augustin because Augustin was connected to the Army of Italy.  Napoleon still dreamed of making himself powerful in Corsica in those days.  He persuaded Augustin to send his plans for an Italian campaign to Maximilien in the hope that they would be approved and that he’d get appointed as the campaign’s commander.  It was not to be: the Robespierres soon fell from power.  Napoleon was thrown in jail for a short time after his plans were discovered among Maximilien’s papers, but it was soon recognized that he’d had nothing to do with the Reign of Terror they’d created, so he was freed. 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 09:40:59 PM by palatine »

Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2006, 12:00:43 AM »
Well, at me new questions.
8) Why Napoleon has made revolution in 1799?
9) Why duke has been shot in 1804?
10) Why Napoleon has been proclaimed by "emperor"?
This is Drako Malfoy. This is my most favorite hero.

palatine

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2006, 02:52:00 PM »
Well, at me new questions.
8) Why Napoleon has made revolution in 1799?
9) Why duke has been shot in 1804?
10) Why Napoleon has been proclaimed by "emperor"?

1. The coup d’etat was planned by a group of powerful men who were disaffected from the corrupt Directory regime.  They wanted a popular military leader to help them effectuate the coup and, later, to act as a figurehead while they ran the show.  Napoleon returned from Egypt and they decided that he filled the bill perfectly.  He pulled off the coup with their help, then horrified them by making it clear that he wasn’t going to be their catspaw or anyone else’s, which leads to the next question.
 
2.  The Duc d’Enghien was murdered, in part, to send a twofold message to the Bourbons.  First, Napoleon wanted the Bourbons to stop trying to assassinate him; Enghien was murdered shortly after one such assassination attempt.  It must be stressed that Enghien was an innocent young man.  Unfortunately, Napoleon wanted to make an example of a Bourbon, and Enghien was, for lack of a better word, handy.  Second, Napoleon wanted the Bourbons to stop trying to cajole and bribe him into restoring them to power; he liked power and saw no reason why he should give it to them.  Napoleon might perhaps have owed a debt to Louis XVI for his education, and might perhaps have sworn an oath to him, but any debt was canceled and any oath was made moot by his execution.  Napoleon didn’t owe Louis XVIII anything.  After trying and failing to make the Bourbons understand that he wasn’t going to emulate General Monk, he finally gave up and murdered Enghien, which, I must stress, he wouldn't have done if it hadn't been for the assassination attempts.  For what it's worth, he later regretted what he'd done to Enghien. 

He had another reason to do what he did.  Many powerful men in France had participated in the French Revolution and/or had benefited from the fall of the monarchy by buying royal and noble estates, convents and monasteries, art treasures, etc., at bargain basement prices.  They were worried that Napoleon would cut a deal with the Bourbons that would leave them out in the cold; they had enough clout to destabilize Napoleon’s government and possibly even overthrow it, which meant they needed to be conciliated.  Napoleon's action implicitly assured them that, just like them, he had nothing to gain and everything to lose from a Bourbon restoration. 

3.  Napoleon underlined the message he'd sent by subsequently making himself Emperor.  His action made it clear that he would never allow the Bourbons to return to power if he could help it.  It also meant (he hoped) that his family would rule France in perpetuity.  He also did it to make his life easier; being Emperor made him more powerful than he'd been as First Consul, and allowed him to ennoble people, hand out medals, and so forth.  He understood that it was "with baubles that men are led", and hoped to secure the loyalty of powerful men through titles, estates, etc.   He also did it to increase his prestige on the world stage and thus help pave the way for alliances with various rulers.  Finally, I think it was a nod to all of the ancient Roman generals who'd made themselves Caesars through a combination of military victories and political acumen.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 03:14:07 PM by palatine »

Offline Dmitry Russian

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2006, 06:13:42 PM »
Thanks for answers to these previous questions.
But at me new questions.
11) why Napoleon has arrested the Spanish and Neapolitan royal families and has expelled them from their kingdoms?
12) why Napoleon has gone to Russia per 1812?
13) unless Napoleon did not understand, what all Europe will be at war against it within 100 days in 1815?
This is Drako Malfoy. This is my most favorite hero.

palatine

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Re: Napoleon Ier,le Grand Empereur
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2006, 10:11:00 PM »
Thanks for answers to these previous questions.
But at me new questions.
11) why Napoleon has arrested the Spanish and Neapolitan royal families and has expelled them from their kingdoms?
12) why Napoleon has gone to Russia per 1812?
13) unless Napoleon did not understand, what all Europe will be at war against it within 100 days in 1815?

Before I answer any more of your questions, I'd like to address something you posted earlier.  Some while ago, you pointed out that Napoleon’s body was found in a perfect state of preservation.  This was because Napoleon had been exposed to extremely high, possibly toxic, levels of arsenic over a long period of time.  Ben Weider and David Hapgood wrote an excellent book called The Murder of Napoleon in which they argued that Napoleon died as a result of deliberate arsenic poisoning.  Weider and Hapgood believed that the Comte d’Artois (later Charles X) ordered the murder to be carried out. 

There's something I'd like you to do before I answer any more of your questions.  I'd like you to read a passage from The Court of the Tuileries by Lady Jackson, Volume 1, page 132, and consider its implications.  The passage refers to Louis XVIII's unpopularity after he returned to France and his attempt to assert divine right:

"But discontent was not confined to the army.  Even among the partisans of the monarchy there were complaints…Much disgust was also inspired by (Louis XVIII’s) constant harping on the ‘right divine and the 19th year of his reign.’  A coronation and its accompanying festivities, by amusing the public mind, might perhaps for a time have veiled from it the political inaptitude of the king and his newly formed ministry.  But Pius VII, who crowned Napoleon, absolutely refused to recognize the pretension of Louis XVIII to date his reign from the death, in 1795, of the young dauphin called Louis XVII."

"His holiness was reminded that in crowning Napoleon he had acted under compulsion.  He, however, utterly rejected such a suggestion.  No constraint, he said, had been put on him.  It was of his own free will he came to Paris to crown the man whom the nation had chosen; and he declared that Napoleon was duly consecrated, anointed with the holy oil, recognized by the sovereigns of Europe as of the brotherhood of kings, and was as legitimately a sovereign prince as the rest.  This was an unexpected and mortifying rebuff to the ‘right divine’ and in vain Louis talked of reuniting the separate links of the chain of time, of blotting from his memory, as he would wish to blot from the page of history, what had occurred in his kingdom during his 'absence'…."

« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 10:15:35 PM by palatine »