Author Topic: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden  (Read 18826 times)

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Offline britt.25

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2007, 05:12:15 AM »
That he was the son of Napoleon was rather a theory. Not proved. I think, some tests only showed that he was somewhere related to the house Baden, but there is no proof for him descending from Napoleon, but maybe from Stephanie Beauharnais, stepdaughter of Napoleon. Some created the theory that Stephanie might have had a relationship to the emperor and the fruit, Kaspar Hauser,  should not become known..
I don't know. Napoleon was known for supporting his illeg. sons (count Léon and Walewski), I don't think that this could have happened.... ::)
I think, it's no more than a theory, maybe one should do some DNA- testing with Napoleon descendants as well that the rumours will come to an end :P
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 05:15:42 AM by britt.25 »
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Offline Adagietto

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2007, 07:08:45 AM »
The theory that he was imprisoned at Schloss Pilsach does seem very plausible. This is the 'dungeon' that was discovered there in the 1920's:


The foundling spoke of having had a wooden toy horse as his plaything (indeed, as his only companion) during his imprisonment, and this old toy horse was found at the castle:


Of course it cannot be proved that this was the same horse. But there is another piece of evidence. The ironwork in the window of the dungeon is of this peculiar shape:

And this bears a remarkable similarity to this pattern in an early drawing by the foundling:



If the child was hidden away in this manner (somewhere if not there; hardly anyone nowadays thinks he was a fraud), someone wealthy and powerful must have some very good reason for doing so. The eminent jurist Anselm Feuerbach, who knew the child and examined the case very carefullly, certainly believed that he had been born as a son of Grand Duke Carl of Baden.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2007, 07:56:09 AM »
If I remember correctly Grand Duchess Sophie of Baden was secretly considered a paymaster of Kaspar's murder.

Offline susana

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2007, 09:22:21 PM »
  :)  Stephanie de Beauharnais was a cousin of Napoleon I's adopted children Eugene and Hortense Beauharnais (Josephine's children); Napoleon was her patron and arranged her marriage to Baden. Kaspar Hauser was not related to Napoleon I but apparently related to Stephanie. I read this story years ago, before the DNA testing and it's even sadder now that we know he had a family who could have helped him. Thanks for the fascinating new website--a good read.
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2007, 02:14:20 AM »
Yes, it was only proved that he is related to the house of Baden, but there were those strange speculations - I've read- that he might have been the son of Stephanie and NapoleonI.

But I don't think so.

I think the DNA tests can only show a relationship to Baden, but not to who from the family :-\
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

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Offline Adagietto

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2007, 03:57:20 AM »
An old translation of Feuerbach's book on Kaspar Hauser is now available, incidentally, at the internet archive:
      http://www.archive.org/details/casperhauseracco00feuerich

Though there is a much better translation in 'Lost Prince' by J.M. Masson, which also contains an interesting and balanced discussion of the case. (The pictures above were taken from that book).

Offline Mari

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2007, 04:34:07 AM »


Quote
Yes, it was only proved that he is related to the house of Baden

Quote
If the child was hidden away in this manner (somewhere if not there; hardly anyone nowadays thinks he was a fraud), someone wealthy and powerful must have some very good reason for doing so. The eminent jurist Anselm Feuerbach, who knew the child and examined the case very carefullly, certainly believed that he had been born as a son of Grand Duke Carl of Baden.


So, Kasper would have been locked up to keep him from inheriting the title of Grand Duke of Baden is that the accepted thought in Lost Prince? I have not read the internet version of Feuerbach's Book but how is it known that Grand Duchess Sophie of Baden was considered the Paymaster of Kaspar's Murder?

Offline Adagietto

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2007, 05:09:31 AM »
Masson does not set out to prove any particular theory but simply outlines the evidence put forward by Feuerbach and others. He makes his own view clear enough, though, that this is not merely one of those empty conspiracy theories that grow up so easily around the death of famous people. For Kaspar must have been hidden away and ultimately murdered to cover up some very serious conspiracy. The idea is that the Countess of Hochberg, the second wife of Karl Friedrich of Baden, must have arranged for a mortally ill child to be substituted for Karl Friedrich's son by Stephanie de Beauharnais (born and supposedly die 1812), so as to ensure that her own eldest son Leopold (born previously in 1790) would inherit the throne, as he in fact did. The real heir was thus hidden away and eventually released in circumstances that they had thought would prevent him from presenting any danger. As events turned out, though, the mystery of his origin attracted international attention, so that the conspirators finally felt obliged to go further than they had wished and actually have him murdered. If that is true, the murder must have been arranged from Baden. This book does attribute the murder or its prompting to any specific person. That would presumably be a matter for conjecture rather than something that could be known for certain.

Offline susana

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2007, 01:39:35 AM »
Regarding the theory that Kasper may have been the child of Stephanie and her patron Napoleon I I think there is a misunderstanding. Napoleon's adopted step-daughter Hortense de Beauharnais, who was married to Louis Bonaparte, King of Holland and a younger brother of Napoleon was rumored to have had a relationship with her step-father which produced a son--one of the princes of Holland. Perhaps this is where the story comes from regarding Stephanie--a Beauharnais cousin. Napoleon took very good care of all of his illegitimate sons, and was apparently fond of a daughter born while he was on St Helena, although he was in no position to make arrangements for her financial care at that point in his life.

I hope this provides some clarification.
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Offline britt.25

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2007, 04:15:59 AM »
Until now I never believed in the rumour with the daughter by the countess Montholon....
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

Offline strom

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2011, 05:18:12 PM »
Dear Freinds:

Kaspar Hauser was of great interest to GD Nicolas Mikhailovich whose mother, I believe, was a princess of Baden.  He was in communication with the Grand Duke of Baden who apparently 'sympathized' with the GD's assertion that Hauser was dispossessed by a conspiracy.  Moreover, of course the fate of Hauser was of supreme interest to Steiner and to Anthroposophy.  It should not be considered, of course, inconsequential that Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg, the life-long defender of 'Anna Anderson' (certainly the fourth daughter of the Emperor Nicholas II) was also concerned about the fate of Hauser.  The Anthroposophists apparently believed there was a close analogy between the fate's of Hauser and GD Anastasia and this goes far in explaining Prince Frederick's allegiance to Anna Anderson as well as the protection afforded to her by numerous highly-placed German anthropops (sic!) after 1925 amongst whom was Harriet Rathlef.     

Offline Barbara of Hohenzollern

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2014, 07:31:17 PM »
A new mystery around that case: A lawyer from Karlsruhe, Winfried Klein, said the House of Baden isn't the owner of the coffins, it is the Federal Republic, and he wants to open the coffins for DNA samples.
But when he started he saw that the coffins of the two little princes are missing! They did not get lost after the war, in the 80s they still were in the undercroft. So it seems as if someone who had the keys did put those two coffins away when the possibilty was near that someone could be tested and recognized by his DNA. There are many articles but unfortunately in german.
For example this one:
''Coffin loss in the royal crypt''

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/kaspar-hausers-raetsel-zweiter-teil-sargverlust-in-der-fuerstengruft-11822206.html

I was always one of the believers, I am sure poor Kaspar Hauser was the victim of that Hochberg mistress, the fact that now these coffins are missing made me speechless.

Offline Превед

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2014, 06:47:59 AM »
Wow, fascinating news and article, Barbara!
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Barbara of Hohenzollern

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2014, 02:17:42 PM »
Thank you, dear  Превед ! :)
The story goes like this: The House of Baden always refused strangers to visit the undercroft. To me this was strange because it is not normal here to show the royal's graves- expect for example the mausoleum of the Rosenhöhe because this building is dilapidated- , but okay, it was their property all those years. (By the way: My mother used to tell me: why on earth should the House of Baden still make a secret about Kaspar if this happened as it did? The do not reign still! I use to answer: Because this makes that House to a bunch of criminals. Stealing newborns and murderer children- not only that strange baby but the second son of Stephanie too, and stealing Kaspar's life too till that moment  he was killed: isn't this enough reason to be quiet? I know my anchestors from the early 19th century too and would not be proud of such things and the House of Baden was very near to the Kaiser's throne and afterwards with Max von Baden part of our governement)
In the 80s, someone who had to take care of the undercroft somehow saw that two children's coffins were missing. The first two coffins who were missing  had the numbers 23 and 24, and these numbers had the two coffins of Stephanies children before. But the coffins got new places in the undercroft and now 23 and 24 were other children's coffins. It is clear the one who stole the first two coffins thought because of the numbers he had the two 'Stephanie- princes'. But he hadn't, and now, when there was that visit in the undercroft, it was visible that two babies coffins were missing but the two princes were still inside.  He saw his mistake and had to take the other two coffins to. 
 
And after the commitee said 'but that two coffins are in, for heavens sake!' they disappeared. Hm.
**********************
Oh,and one second thing: I've read here that some said Kaspar could have been Napoleon's child. But there is a story that Stephanie was shocked when she saw Kaspar because of the resemblance to her husband.

Poor poor Kaspar, it is so cruel what happened to that poor human!

Offline Превед

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Re: Kaspar Hauser and the Grand Dukes of Baden
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2014, 03:48:39 PM »
(By the way: My mother used to tell me: why on earth should the House of Baden still make a secret about Kaspar if this happened as it did? The do not reign still! I use to answer: Because this makes that House to a bunch of criminals. Stealing newborns and murderer children- not only that strange baby but the second son of Stephanie too, and stealing Kaspar's life too till that moment  he was killed: isn't this enough reason to be quiet? I know my anchestors from the early 19th century too and would not be proud of such things and the House of Baden was very near to the Kaiser's throne and afterwards with Max von Baden part of our governement)

I can see how it would have jeopardized their legitimacy while they still reigned, but nowadays I think it would have just added to their Glanz und Gloria if it had been proved to be true. Because most monarchs at that time did terrible things that (indirectly) killed off far more people. The House of Baden has always seemed a bit too sober and dour, but if you add Kaspar Hauser to the bisexuality of Friedrich II and Prince Max you get an interesting mix that puts it more on par with the Houses of Hesse, Württemberg and Wittelsbach in the South German Romantic league.

And despite initial reluctance during the Revolution in Baden, the grand dukes of the Hochberg line did make Baden one of the most liberal German monarchies and Prince Max tried to extend that to all Germany. During the Third Reich they also stayed true to liberal principles. Kaspar Hauser, despite his mother hailing from a revolutionary dynasty, fits into this story like an innocent, necessary sacrifice, a bit like Ludwig II in Bavaria. (Where the Wittelsbachers remain popular, even though they may have had a finger at play in King Ludwig's death.)

Contrast this with the Hohenzollerns who always seem much dourer and petty in their excesses, but in no way can be directly connected to the development of democracy and constitutional government in the same way that the liberal South German monarchies can. Even though they weren't the absolutist monsters that Allied WW1 propaganda painted them as and some Anglophones still think they were. (The absolutist monsters were the Romanovs, of course.)

Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)